Randy Moss: The Greatest of All-Time?

[Nightmare]

Originally Posted by cookie monster

Lol...You're wrong. Don Hutson dominated the NFL because blacks were banned from the league in 1933 and wasn't integrated until 1946. My point being, you can't consider some one the second best receiver of all time if he didn't play against best players of his time.

See what I'm saying? He NEVER played against the best players, so can you call him one of the best?

It's not like history and record books prove that blacks have dominated the NFL since they've been allowed to play or anything? Lol

Hutson wouldn't have put up such gaudy numbers against guys like Kenny Washington, possibly the greatest college player not to play in the NFL.

If Hutson played today, who knows how he would do against the best players in the world because he never got tested against them.

If Canadiens couldn't play in the NHL, and some American led the NHL in scoring 10 years in a row, would you consider him the best ever if Orr had to play in some bush league in Canada?

If Hutson played in a fully integrated league against the best competition the country has to offer, whatever the year, I would agree with you and Big Jack but in reality, he didn't, so I don't.
1
Does that make sense?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your above listed banter is in response to a different poster and you misquoted my previous post by type-o or whatever. If that's the case, please read no further. If not, standby I'll try to break this down Barney style:

Where...WHERE. In the love of GOD did you read ANYTHING about a BLACK / WHITE INTEGRATION issue in my post!?!

My earlier post was a simple, constructively articulated rebuttal to previous commentary in this thread including ignorant banter about on how Don Hutsons of yester-year can't play today not because of the color of their skin, but because allegatons that their era of athlete doesn't deserve to be on the same field as the athlete of today.

I'll take your change-of-subject race flaming as a sign that you're starting to see new light on the debate of past years athletes vs modern athletes.

There isn't a poster on HF.com as passionate as I about the black eye on American culture that is segregation and 1940s pro football is a mere microcosm of that culture. Previous posts on this thread however claim that Hutson couldn't even get on the field today not because he was a white guy, but because he is an ancient product of an era that can't hang with JJ Watt or Darelle Revis etc. I explained why in detail that is inaccurate.

Your response to me had nothing to do with my earlier post, you abandoned any and all logic and spewed some black / white thing.

No need to revisit my previous explanations here, just scroll up if you need a refresher.

Based on previous comments on this thread, its suggested that a player of Hutsons time wouldn't be able to put up numbers today.

By that logic; since all the banished black guys who weren't allowed to play pro football in Hutsons era were a product of the 1940s, then you'd suggest they wouldn't be able to perform today with a 2013 conditioned Revis or a young Woodson or Bailey on them? Please.

Again, I explained that had those guys played today, they'd be a product of 2013 evolution, training, "supplementing," offense friendly rule chagnes and would output at the same level if not greater than they would in the old days.

If you and I were to post our all time top WRs I bet the lists would be comparable. As dominant as Hutson was in his day, I merely throw him in the same conversation as todays guys. He's on the lower half of my all time top 25, and probably the only white guy on the list- you happy?

(Disclaimer- I'm 29 yrs old and by no means waging some Ice Bowl era war. But hell, today Wes Welker, Danny Amendola, Eric Decker and Jordy Nelson ain't half bad, eh? Black / white flaming is off the mark here.)

As far as an "he didn't face the best of his generation" arguement, yeah no sh*t Hutson didn't have a Rod Woodson or a Deon Sanders on him you're a real Chris Collingsworth on that one lol, but defenders of his day weren't subject to the "chuck rule" and could freely rip him to the frozen turf by his f*cking nostril hairs 40 yards down the field with the ball in the air if they wanted. And throwing the football in his time was almost a taboo. Hutsons hands were vices. He'd earn a big dollar contract today based merely on the fact that he never dropped a football. And none of those ***** sticky glue gloves of today either.

Again, Hutson is probably 25-30 all time WRs in my book and maybe the only white guy on my list.

[cookie monster]

Please, allow me to correct my post which had apparently offended you.

Don Hutson played in an NFL that excluded black players, therefore he did NOT play against the best competition available.

It's not "race baiting"and I never said you brought up race.

I'm trying to explain to you, politely and respectfully, that is not rational to say a player is the second best of all time if he played in a league that didn't allow certain athletes to play in it.

Maybe I didn't make it clear what I meant by "yesteryear", but I was taking about Hutsons era, the non integrated era.

If you go back and read through the thread , I asked the same question over and over and over again which as usual got completely ignored because it's valid.

"How many black cornerbacks did Hutson face?"

It wasn't race baiting, I was hoping someone would look it up because my entire point was there wasn't any and maybe, just maybe people here could could come to the realistic conclusion that because of that fact, Hutson didn't play against the best possible competition like a guy like Moss does.

Get it?

As far as mentioning guys like JjWatts and Vince Wilfork, I brought them up because there wasn't guys that size and athletic in the NFL . Supplement, training and vitamins don't make you 6'8". They help, Randy Moss would've been the fastest guy by far, even if he played in 1938 with Hutson.

Btw, I never said Hutson couldn't play in today's NFL. Go back and look. I said he'd be 3rd or 4th receiver on most teams, like the other white receivers you mentioned.

And as far as players of "yesteryear", in Big Jacks posts about the NBA, I clearly stated that the greats of the past could play in today's NBA and even dominate. Why? Because they played against the best the country has to offer and proved it. Hutson didn't.

If my post came across as some young punk saying "old timers couldn't hang with my generation", I apologize, it's not how I meant it to seem. My "lol...You're wrong" was about you thinking I'm was trying to make some generation vs generation argument.

I was referring to a specific player, playing in a non integrated league that he dominated because he wasn't playing against the best competition and therefore can't be the second best receiver ever. It's why I didn't disagree with who ever mentioned Jim Brown and ONLY talked about Hutson and guys that played between 1933 and 1946 when blacks were banned.

I hope this clears up the confusion. I'm not flaming you at all, or race baiting just using facts to back up my argument. Big Jack pisses me off to no end and sometimes I let it carry into other conversion. If I came across as bitter or being a jerk, again I apologize.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Nightmare

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your above listed banter is in response to a different poster and you misquoted my previous post by type-o or whatever. If that's the case, please read no further. If not, standby I'll try to break this down Barney style:

Where...WHERE. In the love of GOD did you read ANYTHING about a BLACK / WHITE INTEGRATION issue in my post!?!

My earlier post was a simple, constructively articulated rebuttal to previous commentary in this thread including ignorant banter about on how Don Hutsons of yester-year can't play today not because of the color of their skin, but because allegatons that their era of athlete doesn't deserve to be on the same field as the athlete of today.

I'll take your change-of-subject race flaming as a sign that you're starting to see new light on the debate of past years athletes vs modern athletes.

There isn't a poster on HF.com as passionate as I about the black eye on American culture that is segregation and 1940s pro football is a mere microcosm of that culture. Previous posts on this thread however claim that Hutson couldn't even get on the field today not because he was a white guy, but because he is an ancient product of an era that can't hang with JJ Watt or Darelle Revis etc. I explained why in detail that is inaccurate.

Your response to me had nothing to do with my earlier post, you abandoned any and all logic and spewed some black / white thing.

No need to revisit my previous explanations here, just scroll up if you need a refresher.

Based on previous comments on this thread, its suggested that a player of Hutsons time wouldn't be able to put up numbers today.

By that logic; since all the banished black guys who weren't allowed to play pro football in Hutsons era were a product of the 1940s, then you'd suggest they wouldn't be able to perform today with a 2013 conditioned Revis or a young Woodson or Bailey on them? Please.

Again, I explained that had those guys played today, they'd be a product of 2013 evolution, training, "supplementing," offense friendly rule chagnes and would output at the same level if not greater than they would in the old days.

If you and I were to post our all time top WRs I bet the lists would be comparable. As dominant as Hutson was in his day, I merely throw him in the same conversation as todays guys. He's on the lower half of my all time top 25, and probably the only white guy on the list- you happy?

(Disclaimer- I'm 29 yrs old and by no means waging some Ice Bowl era war. But hell, today Wes Welker, Danny Amendola, Eric Decker and Jordy Nelson ain't half bad, eh? Black / white flaming is off the mark here.)

As far as an "he didn't face the best of his generation" arguement, yeah no sh*t Hutson didn't have a Rod Woodson or a Deon Sanders on him you're a real Chris Collingsworth on that one lol, but defenders of his day weren't subject to the "chuck rule" and could freely rip him to the frozen turf by his f*cking nostril hairs 40 yards down the field with the ball in the air if they wanted. And throwing the football in his time was almost a taboo. Hutsons hands were vices. He'd earn a big dollar contract today based merely on the fact that he never dropped a football. And none of those ***** sticky glue gloves of today either.

Again, Hutson is probably 25-30 all time WRs in my book and maybe the only white guy on my list.

So how do you explain guys like Larry Bird, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Tom Chambers, Chris Mullen in the last 20 years or today guys like David Lee, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Kevin Love as some examples. I don't see any of those guys having any issues at all!

Regarding your Hutson as the only white guy, I guess you probably never saw guys like Lance Alworth play or Don Maynard play or Steve Largent play or Fred Biletnikoff play or guys like Ray Berry before that as some examples of great alltime white receivers. All these guys would be unreal with the wide open rules today! We see Welker what he does with Brady and guys like Berry, Largent, Biletnikoff could do the same damn things and guys like Alworth and Maynard were speed burners! Jimmy Orr with the Colts was another speed burner who averaged 20 yards a catch and George Sauer never dropped a pass with the Jets but retired early and he dominated SB 3! They were all great white receivers like that means something!
One of the great receivers of all-time doesn't even have 400 catches in Lynn Swann. He played in a ball control system and in a league that wasn't wide open like today but I'd take a Lynn Swann any day of the week! His issue was he was hurt alot because he went over the middle and would get blasted but in his last three SB's he caught 16 balls for 364 yards and 3 scores in a ball controlled era and much tighter rules!
He was great!
Paul Warfield only had around 440 catches but he was another speed burner and so productive like Hutson was with the TDS! He also averaged over 20 yards a catch for his career!

[Leaf2717]

Off topic:

"Gotta love the tough guys that flame and troll you, then block you because their too cowardly to hear your response. Nick Fotiu must be so proud!"

...they are too cowardly... = ...they're...

Not trying to be a douche but my Sunday morning surfing in another thread led me to your concern with a poster and his misuse of "their" "there" and "they're".

On topic: IMO, Prime [late 90's Vikes] Moss was one of the best I have seen, his body of work is at best top ten.

All the best

[cookie monster]

Originally Posted by Leaf2717

Off topic:

"Gotta love the tough guys that flame and troll you, then block you because their too cowardly to hear your response. Nick Fotiu must be so proud!"

...they are too cowardly... = ...they're...

Not trying to be a douche but my Sunday morning surfing in another thread led me to your concern with a poster and his misuse of "their" "there" and "they're".

On topic: IMO, Prime [late 90's Vikes] Moss was one of the best I have seen, his body of work is at best top ten.

All the best

Lol...it was intentional, but nice catch.

[Leaf2717]

Originally Posted by cookie monster

Lol...it was intentional, but nice catch.

Ironic???

Like rain on your wedding day or a free ride when you've already paid?

Or like an O. Henry short-story?

Thought that might be your intent - how 'bout that Willis Reed, he certainly was better than Moss.

All the best.

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by bigjack

I just watched the NFL Network and they had the Top 10 Green Bay Packers ever counting players and coaches and number 1 is Vince Lombardi and number 2 is Don Hutson!
Best coach voted was Lombardi!
Best player voted was Don Hutson!

They also said that Hutson had the NFL record for TDS with 99 that he held for 44 years. 44 years with the most Td's by a wide receiver and he played in a 10 to 12 game era, with a sh*tty football, and none of the modern passing formations that didn't begin to really get rolling until guys like Sid Gillman implemented them!
I bet most here don't even know that from 1943-45, the league only played 10 game schedules because of WW2 and from 1937 to 1942 they only played 11 game schedules!
That means Hutson scored 99 tds that lasted for 44 years playing 6 years with an 11 game schedule and 3 years with a 10 game schedule.

Churla: I'm not addressing this to you but a great player in his era would be great in any era with the same training and fitness regiment and the same conditions like travel, stadium conditions, the ball, the formations used etc! For anyone here to rip Don Hutson is an idiot and clueless and just watching the NFL Network made me laugh thinking of some of the idiots here!

I hear and read the same bullsh*t about Babe Ruth. That guy was not only the best left handed starting pitcher in the AL who set a WS scoreless innings record that lasted for 33 years but then was hitting more home runs that almost every TEAM, not players but TEAMS and he was a .350 hitter as a Yankee for 15 years and drove in a run every 3.67 at bats as a Yankee over 15 years with a home run every 10.96 at bats and a run scored every 3.68 at bats! That was with no steroids and no greenies either!

You conveniently left out the fact that Ruth was a notorious abuser of performance enhancers: HOT DOGS and SCOTCH

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by Nightmare

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your above listed banter is in response to a different poster and you misquoted my previous post by type-o or whatever. If that's the case, please read no further. If not, standby I'll try to break this down Barney style:

Where...WHERE. In the love of GOD did you read ANYTHING about a BLACK / WHITE INTEGRATION issue in my post!?!

My earlier post was a simple, constructively articulated rebuttal to previous commentary in this thread including ignorant banter about on how Don Hutsons of yester-year can't play today not because of the color of their skin, but because allegatons that their era of athlete doesn't deserve to be on the same field as the athlete of today.

I'll take your change-of-subject race flaming as a sign that you're starting to see new light on the debate of past years athletes vs modern athletes.

There isn't a poster on HF.com as passionate as I about the black eye on American culture that is segregation and 1940s pro football is a mere microcosm of that culture. Previous posts on this thread however claim that Hutson couldn't even get on the field today not because he was a white guy, but because he is an ancient product of an era that can't hang with JJ Watt or Darelle Revis etc. I explained why in detail that is inaccurate.

Your response to me had nothing to do with my earlier post, you abandoned any and all logic and spewed some black / white thing.

No need to revisit my previous explanations here, just scroll up if you need a refresher.

Based on previous comments on this thread, its suggested that a player of Hutsons time wouldn't be able to put up numbers today.

By that logic; since all the banished black guys who weren't allowed to play pro football in Hutsons era were a product of the 1940s, then you'd suggest they wouldn't be able to perform today with a 2013 conditioned Revis or a young Woodson or Bailey on them? Please.

Again, I explained that had those guys played today, they'd be a product of 2013 evolution, training, "supplementing," offense friendly rule chagnes and would output at the same level if not greater than they would in the old days.

If you and I were to post our all time top WRs I bet the lists would be comparable. As dominant as Hutson was in his day, I merely throw him in the same conversation as todays guys. He's on the lower half of my all time top 25, and probably the only white guy on the list- you happy?

(Disclaimer- I'm 29 yrs old and by no means waging some Ice Bowl era war. But hell, today Wes Welker, Danny Amendola, Eric Decker and Jordy Nelson ain't half bad, eh? Black / white flaming is off the mark here.)

As far as an "he didn't face the best of his generation" arguement, yeah no sh*t Hutson didn't have a Rod Woodson or a Deon Sanders on him you're a real Chris Collingsworth on that one lol, but defenders of his day weren't subject to the "chuck rule" and could freely rip him to the frozen turf by his f*cking nostril hairs 40 yards down the field with the ball in the air if they wanted. And throwing the football in his time was almost a taboo. Hutsons hands were vices. He'd earn a big dollar contract today based merely on the fact that he never dropped a football. And none of those ***** sticky glue gloves of today either.

Again, Hutson is probably 25-30 all time WRs in my book and maybe the only white guy on my list.

Really? No Largent, Alworth?

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Churla22

You conveniently left out the fact that Ruth was a notorious abuser of performance enhancers: HOT DOGS and SCOTCH

Not to mention women, it was said that he had major league whores set up in the 7 other cities where the Yankees went!
The amazing thing with Ruth is after the 1925 disaster year when Huggins suspended him and there was talk that Ruth was now 30 and maybe getting old, his 1926 to 1932 seasons were remarkable from age 31 to 37. It was those 7 seasons that really caused his totals to explode and even 1933 wasn't bad for the normal player at age 38.
He met former boxer Artie McGovern after 1925 and every winter worked out in McGovern's gym keeping his weight down around 230 pounds.
From 1926 to 1932, Ruth hit 343 homers and from 1926 to 1931 hit 302 homers or over 50 a year for 6 seasons.
He also had 1059 ribbies in those 7 years or 151.3 a year in a 154 game schedule!
Because he walked so often, he only had 3579 at bats but had 1262 hits for a .353 batting average!
He scored exactly 1000 runs in those 7 years!

So from 1926 to 1932 when Ruth was age 31 to 37 and some say he was actually born in 1894 which would of added a year to his age:

Ruth averaged 511 at bats, 180 hits, 143 runs scored, 49 homers, and 151 rbi's with a .353 batting average!

Ruth to his credit got his drinking somewhat under control and worked out in McGovern's gym each winter after 1925 and his career numbers boomed!

Jimmie Foxx became a horrible alcoholic and after 1939 was never the same hitter at the age of 31. He had good years in 1940 and 41 and then at age 33 was through as a player and it's why he only finished with 534 homers and 1922 ribbies and his batting average fell to .325!

The great Ted Williams played with Foxx from 1939 to early 1942 when Foxx was waived by the Red Sox and Williams always said you didn't have to watch Foxx to know it was ole Double X at bat. Williams said the sound of the ball meeting Foxx's bat was so powerful and distinct that was all you needed to know Jimmie was the hitter!

Willie Mays also became an old ballplayer rather young at the age of 34 when he had his last great year in 1965. He had a good season in 1966 and had 542 homers at that point in his career!
From 1967 to 1973, Mays only hit another 118 homers and Henry Aaron, who was still hitting 40 homers in 392 at bats in 1973 zoomed past him and left Willie in the dust!

Ruth said it was his legs that went on him and playing the outfield took it's toll. He said if I could just swing that bat, I could play another 10 years!
Hey Babe you were just born too young and there was no DH in the AL!

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by cookie monster

Please, allow me to correct my post which had apparently offended you.

Don Hutson played in an NFL that excluded black players, therefore he did NOT play against the best competition available.

It's not "race baiting"and I never said you brought up race.

I'm trying to explain to you, politely and respectfully, that is not rational to say a player is the second best of all time if he played in a league that didn't allow certain athletes to play in it.

Maybe I didn't make it clear what I meant by "yesteryear", but I was taking about Hutsons era, the non integrated era.

If you go back and read through the thread , I asked the same question over and over and over again which as usual got completely ignored because it's valid.

"How many black cornerbacks did Hutson face?"

It wasn't race baiting, I was hoping someone would look it up because my entire point was there wasn't any and maybe, just maybe people here could could come to the realistic conclusion that because of that fact, Hutson didn't play against the best possible competition like a guy like Moss does.

Get it?

As far as mentioning guys like JjWatts and Vince Wilfork, I brought them up because there wasn't guys that size and athletic in the NFL . Supplement, training and vitamins don't make you 6'8". They help, Randy Moss would've been the fastest guy by far, even if he played in 1938 with Hutson.

Btw, I never said Hutson couldn't play in today's NFL. Go back and look. I said he'd be 3rd or 4th receiver on most teams, like the other white receivers you mentioned.

And as far as players of "yesteryear", in Big Jacks posts about the NBA, I clearly stated that the greats of the past could play in today's NBA and even dominate. Why? Because they played against the best the country has to offer and proved it. Hutson didn't.

If my post came across as some young punk saying "old timers couldn't hang with my generation", I apologize, it's not how I meant it to seem. My "lol...You're wrong" was about you thinking I'm was trying to make some generation vs generation argument.

I was referring to a specific player, playing in a non integrated league that he dominated because he wasn't playing against the best competition and therefore can't be the second best receiver ever. It's why I didn't disagree with who ever mentioned Jim Brown and ONLY talked about Hutson and guys that played between 1933 and 1946 when blacks were banned.

I hope this clears up the confusion. I'm not flaming you at all, or race baiting just using facts to back up my argument. Big Jack pisses me off to no end and sometimes I let it carry into other conversion. If I came across as bitter or being a jerk, again I apologize.

Totally agree in principle, however, I hate speculating or presupposing that Hutson would not have been a dominant receiver in a fully integrated league. Would he have been AS dominant? Logically unlikely - based solely on better competition being integrated into the league. I have zero doubt that he would have still been a very dominant player, however.

I also subscribe to the theory of evolution with regard to athletes - on average, regardless of increased supplementation or more advanced training, humans are simply bigger, faster, and stronger today than they were "yesterday". That being said, there are certainly exceptions to this notion, and, at 6-1, 185 pounds, I have no doubt that a guy like Hutson could excel, to some degree, in today's league. Would he be better than Megatron? Doubtful, but not inconceivable.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Churla22

Totally agree in principle, however, I hate speculating or presupposing that Hutson would not have been a dominant receiver in a fully integrated league. Would he have been AS dominant? Logically unlikely - based solely on better competition being integrated into the league. I have zero doubt that he would have still been a very dominant player, however.

I also subscribe to the theory of evolution with regard to athletes - on average, regardless of increased supplementation or more advanced training, humans are simply bigger, faster, and stronger today than they were "yesterday". That being said, there are certainly exceptions to this notion, and, at 6-1, 185 pounds, I have no doubt that a guy like Hutson could excel, to some degree, in today's league. Would he be better than Megatron? Doubtful, but not inconceivable.

The funny thing is you take pitchers and today they throw 100 pitchers and are exhausted and for years and years they had great stamina and guts!
Each generation always complains that they were tougher or had more guts etc!
I remember reading about Cy Young, the remarkable pitcher remarking about the pitchers in the 1940's and complaining that they don't finish their games like I did and asking what the hell is a guy like Bob Feller doing with all of those bases on balls? Young said in my day, we threw strikes and finished what we started!

I recently asked how guys like Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell regularily played 45 to 48 minutes a game in an era where they ran up and down the court and I watch a so-called All Star Center now in Tyson Chandler play 30-32 minutes and he looks like he is ready to have a heart attack for chrissakes and they don't run like they did in the 1960's!

In some ways today's athletes are better but in some ways they are not. How could pitchers just 25-30 years ago complete so many starts and today's pitchers are dead at 100 pitches and a guy like Cy Young threw over 7000 innings and was a big man at 6'2" and 215 pounds?
The same with the centers in the NBA who totally suck today and have no stamina!

At age 35 in the final game of the 1972 finals against the Knicks, Chamberlain scored 24 points, had 29 rebounds, and blocked 9 shots and played over 45 minutes with 2 bad hands when the Lakers capped off a 69 win season with the NBA Title!

Today centers including Dwight Howard suck!

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by bigjack

The funny thing is you take pitchers and today they throw 100 pitchers and are exhausted and for years and years they had great stamina and guts!
Each generation always complains that they were tougher or had more guts etc!
I remember reading about Cy Young, the remarkable pitcher remarking about the pitchers in the 1940's and complaining that they don't finish their games like I did and asking what the hell is a guy like Bob Feller doing with all of those bases on balls? Young said in my day, we threw strikes and finished what we started!

I recently asked how guys like Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell regularily played 45 to 48 minutes a game in an era where they ran up and down the court and I watch a so-called All Star Center now in Tyson Chandler play 30-32 minutes and he looks like he is ready to have a heart attack for chrissakes and they don't run like they did in the 1960's!

In some ways today's athletes are better but in some ways they are not. How could pitchers just 25-30 years ago complete so many starts and today's pitchers are dead at 100 pitches and a guy like Cy Young threw over 7000 innings and was a big man at 6'2" and 215 pounds?
The same with the centers in the NBA who totally suck today and have no stamina!

At age 35 in the final game of the 1972 finals against the Knicks, Chamberlain scored 24 points, had 29 rebounds, and blocked 9 shots and played over 45 minutes with 2 bad hands when the Lakers capped off a 69 win season with the NBA Title!

Today centers including Dwight Howard suck!

Strong points. It probably has something to do with teams protecting their investments, increased "specialization", and the way athletes train today (and what is asked of them).

The counterpoint might be was Jim Parker bench pressing 700 pounds? Was ANYBODY (short of, perhaps, Bullet Bob Hayes) running sub-4.4 40s, let alone every other wideout/DB at the combine?

While I don't rank him as a top 5 all-time center, Howard hits my top 10 at this point, and is a Hall of Famer. "Sucks" is a bit strong, dontcha think?

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Churla22

Strong points. It probably has something to do with teams protecting their investments, increased "specialization", and the way athletes train today (and what is asked of them).

The counterpoint might be was Jim Parker bench pressing 700 pounds? Was ANYBODY (short of, perhaps, Bullet Bob Hayes) running sub-4.4 40s, let alone every other wideout/DB at the combine?

While I don't rank him as a top 5 all-time center, Howard hits my top 10 at this point, and is a Hall of Famer. "Sucks" is a bit strong, dontcha think?

Suck is strong I totally agree but Howard is really not that good. He has no competition at the center position and what are his moves?
Does he have a 15-20 foot jumper like a Willis Reed did?
No
Does he have a hook shot like Jabbar and all the great centers had?
No
Does he have the finger roll and controls the offense out of the post like Wilt did with the 76ers and Lakers?
No
He looks good now because there are no centers around but he would be average if he played against:

Chamberlain
Russell
Jabbar
Reed
Thurmond
Lanier
Hayes
McAdoo
Beaty
Gilmore
Cowens
Walton

As just a few or just a little later

Robinson
Ewing
Olajuwon
Parrish

Hell even an Elmore Smith was better than what we see today!

I haven't seen him develop his game like he ought to!

Watch this great clip and tell me if Howard is as good as Reed and Jabbar who was still Lou Alcindor here! This was 11/27/70 and Reed scored 34 and Jabbar 33 and Reed sat out half of the 4th quarter with 5 fouls and each guy had over 15 rebounds! The Knicks won the game 103-94 after trailing by around 9 in the first half. A few months after this game is when Reed first hurt his knee and missed 9 games and was injured in the playoffs and played poorly!
The Knicks lost in 7 games to the Bullets who went on to play the Bucks for the title and the Bucks won the title!
The next year Reed only plays 11 games and misses the playoffs and yet the Knicks make it to the finals where they lost to the 69 win Lakers team!
The next year with Reed at 60-65% and only playing in 69 games, the Knicks again make it to the finals and win a 2nd title with Reed somehow scoring 61 points in the last 3 games of the finals against Chamberlain!
The next year he was injured with the other knee and only played 19 games and then retired!
A healthy Reed and the Knicks probably win at least 4 titles and not 2 titles!
He was some player!

Highlights: 1971 Bucks vs Knicks (11/27/70...

This is some great center play with contrasting styles and size and yet each man effective and dominate!
Marv Albert always said that he felt Reed's strength and ability to fight intimidated Alcindor just a little that he was a chippy player and could be dirty but not with Reed?
They allude to Reed's using his muscle against Alcindor in this clip!

Two all-time great centers!

Yes suck was a little strong!

[cookie monster]

Does every thread you participate in have to devolve into some "back in my day" rant about sports or politics that have nothing to do with the topic at hand?

Save it for the old folks home. Wilt Chamberlain has nothing to do with Randy Moss you delusional blowhard.

[flex_buff_chest]

Randy is the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYER