2013 MLB HoF Ballot

[LAWMAN]

JKidd...funny I used that example because I never even realized where you were from until I just looked. Good example then!

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

Same could be said about Mattingly and his back problems. If you line up their stats side by side, Donnie had better power, Kirby had better average, but remarkably similar numbers. Both great fielders who got All Stars and MVP Votes, yet Donnie Baseball isn't in the HOF.

I never heard the Donnie Baseball HOF reference, but yeah, you are dead on - as I research it a bit.

Just lack of team success keeping Don out?

[flex_buff_chest]

Bonds should be in. I don't give a rats PATOOTIE that he did the roids and such.

The guy crushed baseballs being thrown by other roided up freaks so what's the problem?

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

I find this to be an interesting quote. Although Biggio had 3000+ hits, his career average is like .280 and he was never a top 5 player in the league in any given year. Classic compiler. Not saying he is not worthy, just don't view him as a great player. And as good as Schilling was in some big games, his career win total for me is too low. You cant let him in and then keep guys like Morris and Mussina out. Piazza is your best argument I think, because for a 5-10 year run, he was the best hitting catcher in baseball.

Biggio also had a Hall of Fame-quality prime.

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

I find this to be an interesting quote. Although Biggio had 3000+ hits, his career average is like .280 and he was never a top 5 player in the league in any given year. Classic compiler. Not saying he is not worthy, just don't view him as a great player. And as good as Schilling was in some big games, his career win total for me is too low. You cant let him in and then keep guys like Morris and Mussina out. Piazza is your best argument I think, because for a 5-10 year run, he was the best hitting catcher in baseball.

Schilling had a superior career ERA+ and postseason numbers, so I'm not sure his inclusion would necessitate the inclusion of the other two. I would vote for all three in this order - Schills, Moose, Morris.

Piazza was the greatest hitting catcher of all-time.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Churla22

Biggio also had a Hall of Fame-quality prime.

Biggio is a compiler. He is really a reach for the HOF! He was never considered dominate at anything and all he did was play very good baseball for 20 years! That is admirable but far from great and HOFlike!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by JKidd

I never heard the Donnie Baseball HOF reference, but yeah, you are dead on - as I research it a bit.

Just lack of team success keeping Don out?

They considered Puckett's consistency and .318 average over the 5 or so great Mattingly years that make his career numbers look like Puckett's!

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Biggio is a compiler. He is really a reach for the HOF! He was never considered dominate at anything and all he did was play very good baseball for 20 years! That is admirable but far from great and HOFlike!

Sure, he COMPILED Hall of Fame career numbers. He had an EASY Hall of Fame 5 year stretch from '94 to '98 (prime), as well as a Hall of Fame 10 year stretch in the 90s; all while playing a premium defensive position. So long as he is not linked to steroids, he'll make it in pretty soon, and most deservedly so.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Churla22

Sure, he COMPILED Hall of Fame career numbers. He had an EASY Hall of Fame 5 year stretch from '94 to '98 (prime), as well as a Hall of Fame 10 year stretch in the 90s; all while playing a premium defensive position. So long as he is not linked to steroids, he'll make it in pretty soon, and most deservedly so.

17 homers, 67 ribbies and .281-wow!

Piazza who was a catcher his entire career and destroyed physically was 36 homers, 113 ribbies and .308- NOW THAT IS HOF and not the Biggio crap of a good player for many years!

[CubsJunkie]

Originally Posted by bigjack

17 homers, 67 ribbies and .281-wow!

Piazza who was a catcher his entire career and destroyed physically was 36 homers, 113 ribbies and .308- NOW THAT IS HOF and not the Biggio crap of a good player for many years!

Biggio was more than a good player. According to baseball-reference.com, his stats are most similar to 7 Hall of Famers: Robin Yount, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Jr., Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and George Brett.

Hits/2B/3B/HR/RBI/AVG/OBP/SLG/SB

Craig Biggio: 3060 668 55 291 1175 .281 .363 .433 414
Robin Yount: 3142 583 126 251 1406 .285 .342 .430 271
Joe Morgan: 2517 449 96 268 1133 .271 .392 .427 689
Paul Molitor: 3319 605 114 234 1307 .306 .369 .448 504
Roberto Alomar: 2724 504 80 210 1134 .300 .371 .443 474
Cal Ripken: 3184 603 44 431 1695 .276 .340 .447 36
Brooks Robinson: 2848 482 68 268 1357 .267 .322 .401 28
George Brett: 3154 665 137 317 1596 .305 .369 .487 201

http://www.baseball-reference.com/fr...iggicr01:Craig Biggio&st=career&compage=&age=

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by bigjack

17 homers, 67 ribbies and .281-wow!

Piazza who was a catcher his entire career and destroyed physically was 36 homers, 113 ribbies and .308- NOW THAT IS HOF and not the Biggio crap of a good player for many years!

You can throw out numbers all you like, but without context, they lack true meaning. You cited to his 162-game averages, but failed to:

- explain that he played 20 seasons!

- explain that he LEAD OFF over half his games, and batted second in a fourth of his others (not prime RBI positions)

- adjust his stats for park effects/era

- most importantly, inform the reader that he AVERAGED 105 runs per 162, which is EXACTLY what a Hall of Fame leadoff hitter does.

Now, let's be fair and look at his per 162 averages in his "prime":

130 runs (!!!), 19 HRs, 83 RBI, 41 2B, 43 Steals, .308 avg., .887 OPS, 136 OPS+ (when adjusted for park effects/era, these stats actually go up, albeit negligibly)

Like I said, EASY Hall of Fame numbers. He also played second base, a premium defensive position.

Using the all-time greatest hitting catcher as a comparison is a faulty argument. It's the same tactic you used when arguing against Yastrzemski by comparing him to Ted Williams, arguably the greatest hitter that ever lived. It continues to be a bad argument. Regardless, in terms of their respective primes, Biggio matches up VERY well to Piazza. He was a run producing machine.

Bill James rates Biggio at roughly fifth all-time at second base, Baseball-Reference lists him as being well above a likely or average Hall of Famer, and Jay Jaffe's system ranks him as the 13th greatest second basemen of all-time, and a Hall of Fame caliber player.

Myself? While my research has hardly been exhaustive, I've been hard pressed to find more than a handful of better offensive second basemen in the history of the game.

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by CubsJunkie

Biggio was more than a good player. According to baseball-reference.com, his stats are most similar to 7 Hall of Famers: Robin Yount, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Jr., Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and George Brett.

Hits/2B/3B/HR/RBI/AVG/OBP/SLG/SB

Craig Biggio: 3060 668 55 291 1175 .281 .363 .433 414
Robin Yount: 3142 583 126 251 1406 .285 .342 .430 271
Joe Morgan: 2517 449 96 268 1133 .271 .392 .427 689
Paul Molitor: 3319 605 114 234 1307 .306 .369 .448 504
Roberto Alomar: 2724 504 80 210 1134 .300 .371 .443 474
Cal Ripken: 3184 603 44 431 1695 .276 .340 .447 36
Brooks Robinson: 2848 482 68 268 1357 .267 .322 .401 28
George Brett: 3154 665 137 317 1596 .305 .369 .487 201

http://www.baseball-reference.com/fr...iggicr01:Craig Biggio&st=career&compage=&age=

Nice work.

[Phila26Flyers]

Originally Posted by Churla22

Using the all-time greatest hitting catcher as a comparison is a faulty argument. It's the same tactic you used when arguing against Yastrzemski by comparing him to Ted Williams, arguably the greatest hitter that ever lived.

This whole post was great, and the most accurate assessment of Biggio I've read in this forum, but I thought this line was pretty funny.

I thought for sure Biggio would get in, but I suppose the writers didn't want to induct anyone out of fear that a vocal minority of the masses would cry that whoever they inducted was chosen over the all-time leading home run hitter.

Either way, it's bullsh!t. I don't think Piazza and Biggio will miss out next year though.

[Churla22]

Originally Posted by Phila26Flyers

This whole post was great, and the most accurate assessment of Biggio I've read in this forum, but I thought this line was pretty funny.

I thought for sure Biggio would get in, but I suppose the writers didn't want to induct anyone out of fear that a vocal minority of the masses would cry that whoever they inducted was chosen over the all-time leading home run hitter.

Either way, it's bullsh!t. I don't think Piazza and Biggio will miss out next year though.

Ha, thanks, and I hope you are right about next year; it's another monster ballot, so we'll see.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by CubsJunkie

Biggio was more than a good player. According to baseball-reference.com, his stats are most similar to 7 Hall of Famers: Robin Yount, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Jr., Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and George Brett.

Hits/2B/3B/HR/RBI/AVG/OBP/SLG/SB

Craig Biggio: 3060 668 55 291 1175 .281 .363 .433 414
Robin Yount: 3142 583 126 251 1406 .285 .342 .430 271
Joe Morgan: 2517 449 96 268 1133 .271 .392 .427 689
Paul Molitor: 3319 605 114 234 1307 .306 .369 .448 504
Roberto Alomar: 2724 504 80 210 1134 .300 .371 .443 474
Cal Ripken: 3184 603 44 431 1695 .276 .340 .447 36
Brooks Robinson: 2848 482 68 268 1357 .267 .322 .401 28
George Brett: 3154 665 137 317 1596 .305 .369 .487 201

http://www.baseball-reference.com/fr...iggicr01:Craig Biggio&st=career&compage=&age=

First off most were middle infielders so that helps their vote and Brooks got in for his defense like an Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski!
Molitor was a great hitter, Brett was a great hitter and Alomar was a great hitter!
The rest were all compilers!