2013 MLB HoF Ballot

[shaud19]

Should there be reforms? Seems ridiculous not a single person gets to be immortalized by going to the HOF. This is a strange year due to steroid users but nobody getting elected is unacceptable.

[JKidd]

The fact Biggio, Piazza and Schilling didn't get in is quite appalling to me.

Further more disgraceful was what a writer mentioned yesterday, the piece of bat that Roger Clemens threw at Piazza during the WS is in the HOF, but neither player is? Quite disgusting.

[Boston Garden]

You either have to let them all in or none of them.

If Biggio and Bagwell make it then you have to let Bonds and Clemens in, I just assume that everyone from that era took steroids.

With that in mind you have to let Bonds and Clemens in, put it in it's own area or put an asterisk, but to pick and chose who you think took PED's muddies the situation.

Just accept it for what it is...it happened, and in a lot of ways it saved baseball.

[LAWMAN]

Originally Posted by JKidd

The fact Biggio, Piazza and Schilling didn't get in is quite appalling to me.

I find this to be an interesting quote. Although Biggio had 3000+ hits, his career average is like .280 and he was never a top 5 player in the league in any given year. Classic compiler. Not saying he is not worthy, just don't view him as a great player. And as good as Schilling was in some big games, his career win total for me is too low. You cant let him in and then keep guys like Morris and Mussina out. Piazza is your best argument I think, because for a 5-10 year run, he was the best hitting catcher in baseball.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by ValJamesRules

Here's the alphabetical list of guys on the ballot for 2013. Notable 1st timers are Sosa, Bonds and the Rocket. Who do you think will get voted in?

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Roger Clemens
Jeff Conine
Steve Finley
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
Ryan Klesko
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jose Mesa
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Reggie Sanders
Curt Schilling
Aaron Sele
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Mike Stanton
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Todd Walker
David Wells
Rondell White
Bernie Williams
Woody Williams


I think Biggio gets in. 3000 hits is pretty much automatic.
Piazza is Hall worthy, IMO. One of the best offensive catchers in recent history.

Piazza was screwed no doubt about it from the suddenly moral writers who all throughout the 1990's were nowhere to be found with roids and guys like: Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa but now want to punish the all-time home run hitter for a catcher who also hit .308 lifetime and was a .330 hitter before playing the position of catcher ruined his body just as it had guys like: Berra, Bench, and Carter!
The other thing that kills me is what they did with Luis Tiant!

Drysdale, Bunning, and Hunter are all in the HOF and yet Tiant has better numbers than those other three and he is nowhere to be found!

Drysdale: 208 wins with a .557%!
Bunning: 224 wins with a .549%!
Hunter: 224 wins with a .574%!
Tiant: 229 wins with a .571%!

Drysdale with two 20 win seasons!
Bunning with one 20 win season!
Hunter with five 20 win seasons!
Tiant with four 20 win seasons!

Drysdale with 49 shutouts!
Bunning with 40 shutouts!
Hunter with 42 shutouts!
Tiant with 49 shutouts!

Drysdale with 167 complete games!
Bunning with 151 complete games!
Hunter with 181 complete games!
Tiant with 187 complete games!

Tiant with most wins, complete games, and shutouts and yet he is the guy not in the HOF?????
He also won two ERA titles with sub 2 runs/game seasons in 1968 and 1972!
He was also 3 wins and no losses with a 2.86 era in the post season!

The hell with this Jack Morris bullsh*t, how is Luis Tiant not in the HOF?

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

I find this to be an interesting quote. Although Biggio had 3000+ hits, his career average is like .280 and he was never a top 5 player in the league in any given year. Classic compiler. Not saying he is not worthy, just don't view him as a great player. And as good as Schilling was in some big games, his career win total for me is too low. You cant let him in and then keep guys like Morris and Mussina out. Piazza is your best argument I think, because for a 5-10 year run, he was the best hitting catcher in baseball.

Besides Biggio being a 7 time all star, 4 time golden glove winner, and 5 time silver slugger winner, you're right - he wasn't much.

To me, Biggio and Roberto Alomar were THE 2 best 2nd baseman in the game during the 90s.

Schilling... 216 career wins, 3 world series titles, 11-2 in the post season, and the consummate Cy Young runner up. Low win total, yeah. But, compared to others already in the HOF, it's a VERY high win total.

Mussina is up next year with Glavine and Maddux I believe?

[theknuckler]

Originally Posted by JKidd

Besides Biggio being a 7 time all star, 4 time golden glove winner, and 5 time silver slugger winner, you're right - he wasn't much.

To me, Biggio and Roberto Alomar were THE 2 best 2nd baseman in the game during the 90s.

Schilling... 216 career wins, 3 world series titles, 11-2 in the post season, and the consummate Cy Young runner up. Low win total, yeah. But, compared to others already in the HOF, it's a VERY high win total.

Mussina is up next year with Glavine and Maddux I believe?

hell yeah!

[theknuckler]

Originally Posted by shaud19

Should there be reforms? Seems ridiculous not a single person gets to be immortalized by going to the HOF. This is a strange year due to steroid users but nobody getting elected is unacceptable.

nope. I think they should increase it to 80 if anything, and other sports should follow suit.

[LAWMAN]

Originally Posted by JKidd

Besides Biggio being a 7 time all star, 4 time golden glove winner, and 5 time silver slugger winner, you're right - he wasn't much.

To me, Biggio and Roberto Alomar were THE 2 best 2nd baseman in the game during the 90s.

Schilling... 216 career wins, 3 world series titles, 11-2 in the post season, and the consummate Cy Young runner up. Low win total, yeah. But, compared to others already in the HOF, it's a VERY high win total.

Mussina is up next year with Glavine and Maddux I believe?

If you take his career numbers, and average it over a 162 game season, Biggio's Numbers are a .281 BA, .363 OB%, 174 Hits, 100 K's, 17 HR, 67 RBI, and 24 SB's. Solid numbers clearly...but great? I think not. And Gold Gloves, All Stars, and Silver Slugger's are all comparison awards compared to others at the position. I guess the NL was weak at 2B. I would also consider Jeff Kent and Ryne Sandberg for second basemen on the 90's.

As for Schilling, was definitely a big game pitcher, but 216 career wins doesn't cut it. I guess David Wells and his 239 wins and a 10-5 post-season record is a HOF candidate as well? How about Andy Pettite's 245 career wins and 19-11 postseason record?

The only point i was making is they were both really good players, but you should be great for the HOF. To me, Piazza had the best argument of the 3.

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

If you take his career numbers, and average it over a 162 game season, Biggio's Numbers are a .281 BA, .363 OB%, 174 Hits, 100 K's, 17 HR, 67 RBI, and 24 SB's. Solid numbers clearly...but great? I think not. And Gold Gloves, All Stars, and Silver Slugger's are all comparison awards compared to others at the position. I guess the NL was weak at 2B. I would also consider Jeff Kent and Ryne Sandberg for second basemen on the 90's.

As for Schilling, was definitely a big game pitcher, but 216 career wins doesn't cut it. I guess David Wells and his 239 wins and a 10-5 post-season record is a HOF candidate as well? How about Andy Pettite's 245 career wins and 19-11 postseason record?

The only point i was making is they were both really good players, but you should be great for the HOF. To me, Piazza had the best argument of the 3.

I hear ya on being great. However, and this is where we differ - ideologically - I see Biggio and Schilling being great for their era, while you seem to be looking for great all time.

[LAWMAN]

I agree to disagree. But to me niether was even great for their era. To me, great for their era means a top 5 player in the league for any given season. If anything, maybe, under my standards, Schilling was great a few years, especially when he was runner up for the Cy Young in 01, 02 and 04. I just cannot get over the low win total for his career.

Like I stated previously, I believe Piazza got screwed the most. 308 career average and 162 game season average of 36 HR and 113 RBI for a catcher.

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

I agree to disagree. But to me niether was even great for their era. To me, great for their era means a top 5 player in the league for any given season. If anything, maybe, under my standards, Schilling was great a few years, especially when he was runner up for the Cy Young in 01, 02 and 04. I just cannot get over the low win total for his career.

Like I stated previously, I believe Piazza got screwed the most. 308 career average and 162 game season average of 36 HR and 113 RBI for a catcher.

That's fine, and I'll agree to disagree as well.

Until a set criteria is set forth from the HOF (I believe the entire process is under review in the wake of an inductee less year) on what it takes to be a HOF'er, it's all up to the person.

And I'll agree, Piazza is probably the biggest snub of them. When it came to the mid-90's, there were two catchers you could count on to be all stars and the best at their position - Piazza and Pudge.

[LAWMAN]

Originally Posted by JKidd

That's fine, and I'll agree to disagree as well.

Until a set criteria is set forth from the HOF (I believe the entire process is under review in the wake of an inductee less year) on what it takes to be a HOF'er, it's all up to the person.

And I'll agree, Piazza is probably the biggest snub of them. When it came to the mid-90's, there were two catchers you could count on to be all stars and the best at their position - Piazza and Pudge.

Agree that the selection process is faulty as the criteria remains undefined. To me as a Yankee fan, this was never more evident than when comparing Puckett and Mattingly.

What is really amazing about Piazza and Pudge, is they were the top 2 at the position, but vastly different in how they played that position. When talking about Piazza's defense....he was a great hitter and Pudge was an all-world defensive catcher and quality hitter. However, Pudge never put up Piazza like offensive numbers until he mysteriously inflated, and then stopped after he was deflated when they began testing.

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by LAWMAN

Agree that the selection process is faulty as the criteria remains undefined. To me as a Yankee fan, this was never more evident than when comparing Puckett and Mattingly.

What is really amazing about Piazza and Pudge, is they were the top 2 at the position, but vastly different in how they played that position. When talking about Piazza's defense....he was a great hitter and Pudge was an all-world defensive catcher and quality hitter. However, Pudge never put up Piazza like offensive numbers until he mysteriously inflated, and then stopped after he was deflated when they began testing.

Kirby Puckett is one hell of a rare situation all around. You have a guy who is literally having great year after great year, and then wakes up blind and cuts him down in his prime. I honestly can't remember the lobbying effort to get him to Cooperstown, but from a local standpoint, and how good Puckett was, I'm fine with him getting the nod - given the situation and the success Kirby was having, up until his unfortunate situation.

Piazza and Pudge... being a catcher/pitcher growing up in the mid-late 90s, they were my two favorites at the position, for obvious reason. I always leaned towards Pudge because watching him gun down runners was just fun to watch, and I seen a lot of him being an AL guy. Piazza grew on me through the years though, and it wasn't until I was in HS did the level of his greatness really hit me. One of the best, if not the best, offensive catchers in the entire history of the sport, and he'll be linked to an era where roids were common and be "looked down on" because he never won a WS.

It was a true pleasure to see those two play, and contrast each other in amazing ways... even if Pudge juiced towards the end.

[LAWMAN]

Originally Posted by JKidd

Kirby Puckett is one hell of a rare situation all around. You have a guy who is literally having great year after great year, and then wakes up blind and cuts him down in his prime. I honestly can't remember the lobbying effort to get him to Cooperstown, but from a local standpoint, and how good Puckett was, I'm fine with him getting the nod - given the situation and the success Kirby was having, up until his unfortunate situation.

Same could be said about Mattingly and his back problems. If you line up their stats side by side, Donnie had better power, Kirby had better average, but remarkably similar numbers. Both great fielders who got All Stars and MVP Votes, yet Donnie Baseball isn't in the HOF.