Mike Tyson: All-Time Status
 

A thread on the Top 10 Heavyweights of All-Time was made a little bit ago, and Tyson made just about everyone's list. How would you rank Tyson among the greatest of all-time and why?

Here is a Mike Tyson fight card that I created a couple months ago...

Mike Tyson 50-5 44 KO

Amateur Fights

1981-85
Ernie Bennett (L)
Jonathan Littles (W)
Don Kozad (W)
Kilbert Pierce (W)
Al "Chico" Evans (L)
Andrew Stokes (W)
Mike Bardwell (W)
Warren Thompson (W)
Olian Alexander (W)
Kimmuel Odum (L
Orbit Pough (W)
Derek Isaman (W)
Richard Johnson (W)
Johnny Williams (W)
Rocky Pepelli (W)
Jonathan Littles (W)
Avery Rawls (W)
Olian Alexander (W)
Joe Cortes
Winston Bennet
Craigg Payne
Kelton Brown 1
Kelton Brown 2
Henry Milligan (Olympic Trial)
Henry Tillman 1 (Olympic Trial)
Henry Tillman 2 (Olympic Trial)

Professional Fights

1985
Mar. 6 -- Hector Mercedes (W)
Apr. 10 -- Trent Singleton (W)
May 23 -- Don Halpern (W)
June 20 -- Rick Spain (W)
July 11 -- John Alderson (W)
July 19 -- Larry Sims (W)
Aug. 15 -- Lorenzo Canady (W)
Sept. 5 -- Michael Johnson (W)
Oct. 9 -- Donnie Long (W)
Oct. 25 -- Robert Colay (W)
Nov. 1 -- Sterling Benjamin (W)
Nov. 13 -- Eddie Richardson (W)
Nov. 22 -- Conroy Nelson (W)
Dec. 6 -- Sammy Scaff (W)
Dec. 27 -- Mark Young (W)

1986
Jan. 10 -- Dave Jaco (W)
Jan. 24 -- Mike Jamison (W)
Feb. 16 -- Jesse Ferguson (W)
Mar. 10 -- Steve Zouski (W)
May 3 -- James Tillis (W)
May 20 -- Mitch Green (W)
June 13 -- Reggie Gross (W)
June 28 -- William Hosea (W)
July 11 -- Lorenzo Boyd (W)
July 26 -- Marvis Frazier (W)
Aug. 17 -- Jose Ribalta (W)
Sept. 6 -- Alfonzo Ratliff (W)
Nov. 22 -- Trevor Berbick (W)

1987
Mar.7 -- James Smith (W)
May 30 -- Pinklon Thomas (W)
Aug. 1 -- Tony Tucker (W)
Oct. 16 -- Tyrell Biggs (W)

1988
Jan. 22 -- Larry Holmes (W)
Mar. 21 -- Tony Tubbs (W)
June 27 -- Michael Spinks (W)

1989
Feb. 25 -- Frank Bruno (W)
July 21 -- Carl Williams (W)

1990
Feb. 11 -- James Douglas (L)
June 16 -- Henry Tillman (W)
Dec. 8 -- Alex Stewart (W)

1991
Mar. 18 -- Donovan Ruddock (W)
June 28 -- Donovan Ruddock (W)

1992-1994
Inactive

1995
Aug. 19 -- Peter McNeeley (W)
Dec. 16 -- Buster Mathis, Jr. (W)

1996
Mar. 16 -- Frank Bruno (W)
Sept. 7 -- Bruce Seldon (W)
Nov. 9 -- Evander Holyfield (L)

1997
June 28 -- Evander Holyfield (L)

1998
inactive

1999
Jan. 16 -- Francois Botha (W)
Oct. 23 -- Orlin Norris (W)

2000
Jan. 29 -- Jules Francis (W)
June 24 -- Lou Savarese (W)
Oct. 20 -- Andrew Golota (W)

2001
Oct.13 -- Brian Nielsen (W)

2002
June 8 -- Lennox Lewis (L)

2003
Feb. 22 -- Clifford Etienne (W)

2004
July 30 -- Danny Williams (L)

Tyson is like Tony Twist. He has the supreme power, but overall, he was beaten by a guy like Buster Douglas (Francois Leroux for Twist)
His reign, though very dominant, did not last that long. Twisters career was cut short obviously.

I rank him him possibly around the 10th spot.
I'd have to research the heavyweights, but Tyson isn't number one, even though I have a feeling a few idiots on here probably think so, cause he knocks out people in a highlight fashion.

He couldn't beat that brick head Holifield on his best day IMO.

Rocky Marciano is the best heavyweight ever IMO.

He wouldn't have lasted past the 30th round with either Tom Hyer or Yankee Sullivan. ;)

Tyson was a halfdozen years out of his prime when he lost to Holyfield IMO, he peaked in his early 20's and the skills faded faster after Jim Jacobs passed away.

He's still top 10 for sure, could have been the best had he not let his stupidity get the better of him.

He had the speed of Ali,
More power than Marciano or Louis.

but pissed it all away.

Tyson is always going to be subject to debate, (many times very loud verbal slugfests,) which alone puts him up in HOF territory. However, I would say he is overrated to those who say he was the greatest but underrated to those that don't mention him at all when discussing the great heavyweights of all time.

Mike would have out and out destroyed everyone Ali faced with the exception of George Foreman. Ali would have likely done the same with many of Tyson's challengers as well. (Ruddock, Tucker and Holyfield would have given Ali trouble though.) After Ali's era it is impossible to judge the division because very few, if any heavies of the pre 1970 era would have been considered true heavyweights today. In turn, next to none would have lasted 3 rounds with Tyson. Then again, you could say the exact same thing about the oldtimer's chances with Ali.

In terms of the total package, Ali will always be the greatest because they just don't train heavies to fight like that anymore. Tyson is in Ali, Foreman, Louis and Dempsy's league if you judge him by his 1986-1991 career. More than enough to make him a HOFer.

Since Mike got to a point where he was a buff version of Butterbean, (all haymakers, no skills,) I stop short of giving him the title of "the Greatest". At the same time, I don't judge his greatness by his more recent losses anymore than I would judge Ali on his losses to Holmes, Spinks and Berbick. (Or Joe Louis getting destroyed by Marciano.) Most fighters stay too long and tarnish their legacy. (Louis, Ali, Leonard, Duran, Holyfield, Jones Jr., take a bow.)

I'd more than likely rank Tyson in the Top 10 but I don't think any higher than 8.
He was VERY dominant during his peak, but that was short and he's gone downhill rapidly. He also hasn't been very active over the last few years, but of course there's reasons for that.
And lets face it, his only real strength was his tremendous punch. Without that, he wasn't as good as what he is with it. He'd have been a contender probably, but not an undisputed champ, IMO.
Ali would be #1.
Although I like Marciano, he wasn't too fast, and got knocked down a bit. I can't rank him #1, justifiably.

Tyson sucks, he had like 2 good years against fair to poor fighters but who did he really beat. He beat a 90 year old Larry Holmes and couldn't beat a puffed up cruiserweight in Holyfield. Look at who he fought and tell me one good fighter. He was so overated it's not even funny.
Any top 10 guy would of beaten him in a fight. Ali, Foreman in his prime, Frazier, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Johnson, Lewis at anytime, Holmes in his prime, Norton in his prime all would have beaten him and a guy like Ron Lyle or Earnie Shavers might of knocked him out also.
He's another idiot who never realized who truly cared for him and should of stayed with Kevin Rooney and Bill Cayton after Jacobs died but he went with Don King and it was all downhill after that!
Tremendously overated!
Beat a bunch of tomato cans!

mid 80's he was a beast. No one could beat him back then

Sucks?
First off I'd like to see how well Holifield would have done against a prime 85-91 Tyson.

Tyson fought everyone the division had to offer in his prime, he was just killing guys. It's not his fault the division wasen't the best.

Any top 10 guy would have beaten him in a fight? What are you insane? Except for a few of those guys Tyson destroys most of them .

Marciano was 5'10 and 180LBS, I dont think Marciano would have been able to stop the speed and power of a young 225-240lb Tyson. Jack Dempsey 6'0 180lbs, dont think he is beating a 225-240 Tyson.
Joe Frazier? Is a poor mans Mike Tyson . Joe Louis fought around 180 also.

You dont have to like Tyson, but dont act like he is some below average fighter. IMO with his Power,speed and strength he beats alot of the top 10 guys in a fight. Most of those guys fought at around 180lbs so whats the chances someone that size gets out of a ring with Tyson? I'd love to see a fighter at 180 get in the ring with a Tyson from any era.

Ah, Tyson/Holyfield '91, the greatest fight we never saw. That fight would have been VERY interesting to say the least. Holy was much younger, in as great a shape as he was in '96, (albeit is bit less battle tested,) and his heart problems were years away. He was also as brave as he has ever been even then. Mike on the other hand was in a strange place as he still hadn't recovered from the Robin Givens fiasco, (he still hasn't actually,) and was living the Don King party lifestyle, (what I believe cost him the Douglas fight.) Don't forget that Mike still had the single WORST corner in the division at that time. (Watch the chaos throughout the Douglas fight and you will see just how helpless Mike really was between each round.)

Mike was still in his prime and still had a hell of a lot of heart as the Ruddock rematch showed. That alone would have made Holy vulnerable and beatable. I would say that fight would go to Mike by decision at that time as Evander just wasn't ready for prime time just yet.

I believe that if Tyson had never signed with Don King, and stayed with someone disciplined after the initial tragedy of losing his trainer, we'd all be singing a different song about Tyson.
I think, properly looked after, Tyson would have become a boxer that would no doubt be in the all-time Top 5, unanimously, IMO. The fact that King allowed him to do whatever he wanted, was the catalyst for Tyson's fall. He was ALLOWED to hang with leeches, he was ALLOWED to waste his money on nothing, he was ALLOWED to call off training or skip it, if he didn't feel like doing it.
With his natural ability, especially the punch, Tyson would've been STILL at the top of his game now, with a PROPER trainer/corner/promoter/friends. IMO.

Top 5 of the last 25 years, and top 10 all-time . . .

The last time I said something like this about him, I got to listen to how he's one of the greatest ever cause he has the some of the greatest highlight reel KO's.

I've learned a lot about people while posting on this site. Popularity counts towards the fighter they like how they rank all-time. Tyson is popular and always will be, because he hits hard and HAD amazing hand speed as you said for a few years.

That all went downhill fast.

where were you when I was trying to point all this out in a long ago thread ? I had 30 idiots all tooting Tyson's horn against me.

Holyfield.. say what you want, Tyson couldn't BEAT him. what is the point of attacking Holyfield, when the great TYSON could NOT beat him. He couldn't. He tried.

"past his prime"..so was Holyfield you retards.

Sorry about that but he's tremendously overated. I wish I was here to support you but I am now.
He's proven that he has no defense, never goes to the body or arms, and has poor endurance. All he does is look for a head shot and that's not a good fighter.
I'd like to see him in a 15 round war with 6 ounce gloves in the heat like Ali and Frazier went through in 1975 or so many of the other great fighters who could last 15 rounds and not tire out after 3 rounds like he does and where are his boxing skills.
Any top heavyweight from years ago wouldn't be intimidated by Tyson and would beat him. The tomato cans that he beat in the 1980's were scared and didn't try to fight. Put him up against real competition with guys who could jab, go to the body and last 15 rounds and he gets beat everytime!
Marciano would of been punching his arms and gut so hard his head would spin. Watch some of Marciano's fights and see how he hit guys arms so hard that the blood vessels would be busted.
Ask Ali in 1969 right before Marciano's death as a 45 year old guy how hard Marciano hit. They were doing that Computer fight and Ali was being a wiseguy knocking off Marciano's toupee and Marciano after telling Ali like 3 times to stop it stopped pulling his punches and hit Ali a couple of real shots and Ali was shocked at how hard Marciano hit even at age 45.
Marciano also was known for being in tremendous shape at all times and could easily last 15 rounds. He was a warrior and would beat Tyson in a fight of stamina, arm and body punches. Tyson would be open and get hit!
Tyson was never in with a real boxer and wouldn't know how to react. He would of gotten frustrated and tired and leave himself wide open and the great fighters would have gone in for the kill!
Look at what Douglass's jab did to him and how he was tired and left himself wideopen and was hit a shot!

You really need to get informed and watch a Tyson fights from the 80's, he just wasen't a one punch guy. Tyson in those days had great speed for a heavyweight the best and had the best power, he also never got hit in those days because he was so fast. When he was bobbing and weaving his head he was dangerous.
Come on you put Tyson in the ring with Marciano and Tyson beats him, he's to big strong and fast. Marciano and his 5'10 180lb body woulden't hold up against 225-240 Tyson.
Dont base Tysons rankins on his 91-present, those years he was a shell of what he was in 85-90. No heavyweight ever had his combination of speed and power.

I watched all of Tyson's early fights on ESPN and have seen all of his 1990's fights and up to the present and he's completely overated and just not a trained, skilled boxer and I repeat- who did he beat and when did he show any stamina, a chin, defensive skills, a heart, an ability to get off the canvas and come back and win. Never!
It's a joke to think that any of the great fighters would just stand there and say, "ok Mike hit me" and not do anything to retaliate or counter his poor boxing skills. The guys that I saw him knock out were human heavy bags with no guts and afraid. Put Tyson in with any true champion who had skills, stamina, guts, a will to win and not being intimidated and they'd pick his weaknesses apart!
He was a bully and ever since Douglas has been put in his place as a overrated bum who's lack of skills and heart have been exposed!
Tyson's lucky that Lennox Lewis didn't fight him 3 or 4 years earlier because he may have killed Tyson!
Who did he beat in the 1980's and in 1991 he was 24-25 years old. I could see saying don't judge Sugar Ray Robinson after age 38 or Ali after the "Thrilla in Manilla" when that fight destroyed him at age 33 but a 24 or 25 year old guy!
Why not just say, ok don't judge him after his first poor fight!
The guy was 24 years old for chrissakes and we will call him an alltimer but can't judge him after 1991. You just made my point. The guy's a bum!

"Marciano would of been punching his arms and gut so hard his head would spin. Watch some of Marciano's fights and see how he hit guys arms so hard that the blood vessels would be busted".
-bigjack

Amen, couldn't have said that better myself.
But "it's Mike Tyson".. that is the only reason people will disagree. They've seen Mike Tyson.

Watch Espn Classic, do some research.

I also don't wanna be a smart ass for once, but when you guys use "past his prime" in an all-time thread, it defeats the point. The POINT being Tyson was only great for a short period of time.
I don't know how you guys don't see that, and look at WHO he was great against.

nobodies.

Now defend him, because he has the best looking knockouts you'll ever see.

I blame Sportscenter mentality style of showing a good dunk and calling it a basketball highlight, while the guy who won the game gets no ink or tv time. Same for Tyson. You see the massive KO's, but you don't see the full picture. He feasted on nobodies for a few years. Then it went so far, so fast downhill, he is a nobody now. Blame his lifestyle or what have you, still affects his ring record, and how he should be judged when talking all time status.

Just my harmless opinion .
Last i'll post in this thread bigjack, i'm tired of responding to page after page proving a point, people simply can't get, no matter what you say. I've pretty much realized most on here are gonna form an opinion, and can't admit when they are wrong. I'm glad I can still admit when I didn't see a point, or I was simply wrong about something.
Good luck.

SM,
I couldn't of said it better myself.
Can you imagine that I'm being asked to judge a guy up to 1991 when he was 24 years old and forget about the rest but he's an alltimer.
That's like saying that Denny McLain is the greatest pitcher ever because he won 55 games in 1968 and 1969 but was finished by age 28 and had 131 wins. An alltimer is just that, an alltimer, not some flash in the pan who was good for maybe 2 years and nothing else.
Christ, why not nominate Mark Fidrych, Jim Maloney, Gary Nolan, or Don Gullett for the HOF because they started out good and why isn't Roger Maris a hall of famer. Because he's not an alltimer!
The only 3 guys who come to mind quickly as alltimers who didn't play long were Gale Sayers, Sandy Koufax, and Bobby Orr although Orr and Koufax did each play 12 years. They are so great and over the top great that they get special considerations. Tyson is not in that league ever!

Now I know that you really haven't seen alot of Tyson footage.

First you say he was "Just not trained"?
What? Ever hear of a guy Cus D'Amato? This was the same guy who trained the lightweight champ Jose Torres and heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson. Cus has also developed several good trainers in Teddy Atlas,Kevin Rooney and Joey Fariello. Cus was one of the best.
To say Mike Tyson was "not trained" is just someone talking who really know nothing about Tyson in the 80's.

Then you say he isn't a "Skilled boxer" Mabey todays Tyson isn't so skilled but when Tyson was with Cus Damato and that whole crew he was a skilled boxer, he moved avoided punches and could kill you with a quick left hook(best left hook puncher boxing has ever seen),right cross or an uppercut, not to mention those punches are fast,very fast.

"When did he show stamina"
Tyson went 10 rounds with James Tillis,Mitch Green,Jose Ribalta,James Smith, went 12 with Tony Tucker and Razor Ruddick and won every one of those fights. These are examples of when he showed stamina.

Then you say he never had a "chin' Now I know you dont know much about Tyson. Tyson was known to have a great "chin" He was pummelled by Lewis for 8 rounds before he hit the canvas. That was a Tyson who didn't move,box,jab ect a much different Tyson then we all saw fight in the 80's.

You are obviously bias towards Tyson and you infomation on Tyson is very flawed. To think 180lb boxers from the past would have been able to beat a 225-240 trained 1985-90 Tyson is just absurd. Those guys never fought anyone with nearly as much speed and Power that Tyson has. Put 6oz gloves on Tyson and see how fast he would hurt guys.

It's too bad we saw Tyson fight Lewis 12 years out of his prime and too bad we didn't see Tyson and Holifield fight in Tysons prime, because alot of this debate could be answered.

Dont base Tyson from 91-present base him on the years with Cus,Rooney,ect. Like many have said he gould have been the best ever if he had just stayed away from King.

I know exactly who Cus D'Amato was and if you anything about boxing, you would know that Floyd Patterson was another overated fighter. Sonny Liston made mincemeat out of Patterson as did Ali and by the way, Liston with his jab would beat Tyson also!
Look at the guys you mentioned that he fought for 10 or 12 rounds. All sh*t fighters, not even good club fighters.
I've watched him for almost 20 years now and he peaked at 23 years of age. That is not an alltimer fighter who fought nothing but stiffs and his great skills are throwing head shots like a wildman. I don't care if Cus died or Jacobs died or he went with Don King. If you did that, we could cherrypick every wart that a fighter had and it would get ridiculous. The fact that you have to put timeframes and tell me when I can judge him or during what timeframe makes him a fraud.
I'm not telling you to forget Ali's bad fights or Robinson's or Fraziers or anyone else. The are what they are and if you have to cherrypick, then the guy wasn't any good to begin with!
I'm not saying, "well Dempsey took off alot of time before he fought Tunney or he was robbed by the long count so forget those fights" or only count Patterson up to 1960 or forget Foreman's loss to Ali or forget all about Ali after 1967 or 1975 because then the guys stature has no meaning!
A guy cannot be ok for a few years and stink for 15 years and be an alltimer. It doesn't work that way!

Tony Tucker was the "other" undefeated heavyweight and was considered the best in the division next to Tyson. He was also in his prime. (Drugs later in his career ruined him before he could have a rematch with Mike.) This fight was easily the best fight of Tyson's career as champion and he did it against the best heavyweight in the division at that time. Remember, many guys we don't remember are simply forgotten because they never won the BIG prize, not because they sucked. (Razor Ruddock being another prime example of this.) Michael Spinks is another example of one of the best fighters in all of boxing pound for pound and at that time the only top fighter Mike never beat until 1988. Watch that total destruction of a great boxer and tell me how untrained Mike was. NOBODY has ever faced THAT Mike Tyson and it is possible that Mike, in the zone he was in would have KOed a prime Ali. (This was his defining moment as champ even if it wasn't his best fight overall.)

Rocky Marciano was a guy who WOULD have given Mike trouble for a time but in a 15 round fight would not have survived the later rounds because a prime Tyson was just too powerful. The x-factor in this would be Rock's chin which is considered to be the greatest in heavyweight history.

I have heard "who did Mike ever beat?" but the question is who did Rocky ever beat besides a badly shot Joe Louis?

Jack Dempsey would have given Mike trouble for a time too because of his willingness to fight dirty and his mobility. (He was considered to be the most mobile heavy of all time until Ali.) Again, in a 15 round fight Mike would get to him eventually and end the fight then and there.

Sonny Liston would have been a very interesting fight because they were so similar, (and Mike has always said that Liston is the champ he best identifies with.) Both were big, tough and scary and it would have been an exciting fight to watch. However, I doubt that Liston had the heart to go all the way against Tyson.

A prime Larry Holmes would have beaten Mike to a decision because he had the second best jab ever, (second to Ali,) he was fast and big enough to handle him. Since Larry never had a good knockout punch per se, I stop short of giving him a KO win over Mike. Mike's chin would have been too strong to fall to Holmes.

But back to the quality of fighters, only Ali, Holyfield and Lennox Lewis can make claims to greatness if all we are going to judge them on is who they beat. What it comes down to is did the fighter in question beat ALL of the best fighters available in their time?

Tyson: Yes
Ali: Yes (even though he lost to a few of them too)
Holyfield: Yes (see Holyfield)
Louis: Yes
Dempsey: Everyone but Tunney
Holmes: Yes (except for Spinks at the very end of his reign.)
Lewis: Yes (see Holy and Ali)
Foreman: No
Patterson: No
Liston: No
Bowe: Not even close
Marciano: No

This would put Mike in the top 10 all time but not nessesarilly at the top of the list.

Chris,
I agree with some of your points and don't with others. I'm on my way out the door to school(working on my masters) but will be back around 11:30 tonight to reply.
I give you credit for a fair, unbiased opinion editorial and appreciate that. After I respond tonight, I look forward to your response!
Good Job,
Jack

BigChris, Marciano's chin was not the best in Heavyweight history by any standard, you ever heard of a guy named George Chuvalo? Chuvalo had the greatest chin ever in the history of the world!

You guys mention Cus D'mato and that he trained Paterson and Torres but he also trained the greatest Caccius Clay and when asked about the two, said Tyson will be the youngest and possibly the greatest of alltime.

Cus saw them all come and go through his 80+ years and he saw the potential in Mike from the first time that 12 year old, 210 pound thug walked into his gym.

Jack and Smasher, i love the old time fighters but Marciano would be blown out of the ring by Mike if they both fought prime on prime.

Marciano gets these huge props because why? he beat Roland LaStarza? Don Cockell?

Marciano's opponents were better than Tysons? hardly.

Marciano had lots of trouble with Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles guys who would be lightheavies if in the present.

Rocky was never hit as hard as Tyson would have hit him, Mike was ferocious, relentless and as powerful as an Ox, from 1985-88, that Tyson would have killed everyone.

Those lightning fast lunging double left hooks to the body and head, the right hand uppercut as fast as a shark, forget about it, i dont agree, Tyson would have destroyed all the idols.

His lack of self asteem allowed him to be manipulated out of the championship, that was his downfall, along with bi+ches fukking up his life.

Tyson may have beat alot of bums but so did Ali, Rocky , Louis, etc.

Given he only stands 5'9 tall as an adult, thats f*cking big for a 12 year-old.. how come he was so big at such a young age ?

He was 210 pounds from all the old ladies grocery bags that he stole.

An enraged 12 year old Tyson beat the living daylights out of one of the toughest 18 year olds in Harlem after the bully ripped one of Tysons Pigeons heads off, put the guy in the hospital.

This guy was born to destroy people,Marciano wanted to be a baseball player, Tyson was a freak of nature and was EXTREMELY DANGEROUS under the toutledge of Cus D'mato.D'mato saved him from sure doom and when he died so did Tysons learning process. Unfortunately his worst enemy has always been himself.

On another boxing forum they had complied a top 10 for each division, much like we have here for hockeyfighters, lots of votes. Tyson ended up 10th. Just for interest sake here was the top 10 list for the HW division.
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Johnson
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Joe Frazier
10. Mike Tyson

Rocky Marciano would destroy Mike Tyson!
 

In 1969, Murry Woroner, a Miami promoter, approached Rocky and Muhammad Ali with a proposition. He wanted to film a fight between them, using a computer to decide the final outcome.
Ali had been stripped of his title and banned from boxing when he refused to be drafted into the army in 1967. Marciano was 46 years old and sixty pounds over his fighting weight. Each man had his motivations for agreeing to the deal. Ali needed the money. Rocky had money, but he deeply missed his glory days in the ring.
Before he could climb into a ring again, even for a simulated fight, Rocky had to get into some semblance of what he had been. He began running again, working out in the gym, eating right; in truth, he trained as hard or harder than any fighter preparing for a real fight. The result was a loss of almost fifty pounds. To cover his balding head, he was fitted with a wig.
In "Marciano, Biography of a First Son", Everett Skehan said, "When Rocky went to the dingy gym on the North Side of Miami Beach he was thinking tough, expecting things to go smoothly but prepared for anything. He had been briefed, knew that the punches were to be pulled, and that it would not be a real fight. But Rocky wouldn't go into the ring that way. Even at forty-six, he had to feel that if something went wrong, if suddenly the punches became real, he would be ready to win."
Ali didn't train seriously for the filming, and actually looked less in shape than the much older Marciano.
The filming took place in a small gym on the North Side of Miami Beach. Only about 20 people were allowed inside the gym during the filming, which was kept as secret as possible. Behind the fighters was a black backdrop and no crowd of cheering spectators.
Though punches to the head were to be pulled, both men agreed body shots were not a problem. They filmed one minute rounds. Angelo Dundee was on hand as Ali's trainer, but Rocky had to use Mel Ziegler to play the role of Charlie Goldman, his real trainer. Charlie had passed away the year before. Ferdie Pacheco was the ring doctor.
Seventy one-minute segments were filmed, then spliced into three minute rounds, including seven possible endings. All the information about the two men, their fights and results, was fed into the computer. Supposedly, the computer would decide the winner completely on the basis of the data concerning the two men and their boxing careers. Ali would tell different versions of how the outcome was decided; he would say he choose the ending, he would say it was a biased decision made by a computer in Mississippi, etc.
During the filming, Rocky and Ali became friends, spending hours in conversation. Ali would later write that he became closer to Rocky than any other white fighter he ever knew.
Said Dundee of the affair: "Muhammad acquired a lot of respect for Rocky. He said Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked."
Stories came out of the sessions. Several claimed Rocky really hurt Ali with body shots, so that Muhammad climbed out of the ring and demanded extra money to continue. He was payed additional money. (Woroner himself said Ali took such a battering that he refused to continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars.) I've talked to the son of one observer who says Rocky doubled Ali up with a body shot after Ali kept jabbing the wig off Rocky's head. Dundee admitted to the wig episode, but never told of the hard body shot that it led to. Ferdie Pacheco, however, the ring doctor in the film, claims Ali was dropped by a real body shot. The undeniable fact is, Rocky entered the ring ready to make a real fight of it if need be. Even Dundee said he had to be calmed down after the wig incident.
Here's the wig story as I've heard it from two sources:
Ali was dancing around jabbing and threw a high jab which just clipped Rocky's wig and knocked it off his head. The filming was stopped while the wig was refitted, amid bemused smiles from several of the observers. Marciano was embarrassed and angry.
He said, "He did that on purpose to make me look stupid. He doesn't have any respect for me at all."
Rocky was assured it was an accident and the filming resumed. However, Ali again jabbed high and sent the wig flying. Rocky was really mad this time, and snarled, "You better not do that again!"
They began once more and immediatly Ali flicked the wig off Rocky's head. Without hesitation, Marciano dug a vicious body shot into Ali's mid-section, doubling him over. Pacheco said Muhammad actually dropped to the floor and was completely helpless. Quickly Rocky was seperated from Ali and Dundee related how they had to take a break until Rocky's temper cooled off. Marciano offered to turn it into a real fight then and there if Ali was game. Only when Ali appologized did the Rock get over his anger. Observers at the filming have said Ali's attitude was different from that point on, as it was obvious Marciano had come to fight if need be rather than be disrespected.
The result was kept secret from everyone, even Ali and Rocky. The promoter had to keep it secret to make his money when it would be shown in theatres. Five weeks after the filming, Rocky would die in the plane crash, but the result was not unlike what he would have expected. Dundee said he thought the result was the accurate result as chosen by the computer, "It was done strictly by the computer. Nobody set the thing up."
On January 20th, 1970, the fight for the "All-time Heavyweight Championship" played in over six hundred locations around the country.
So how did it end?
In the 13th round, Rocky catches up with Ali and knocks him out, just as he had Walcott all those years before.
Much of the information about the computer fight I took from the excellent book, "Rocky Marciano..Biography of a First Son" by Everett M. Skehan, published in 1977.

Fellows,

This was an account of the 1969 computer simulated fight between Marciano who was 46 years old and inactive since 1956 and Ali who was 27 years of age!
Read where Ali talks about how hard it was to hit Rocky and his powerful bodypunches at 46 years of age.

Many have said that pound for pound, Marciano hit harder than any other boxer. He knocked out 43 out of 49 fighters for an 88% KO percenatge which is also the highest. He also retired undefeated and was a freak of nature with his power and stamina!

Regarding his opponents which some have scoffed at.
He defeated:
Jersey Joe Walcott 2 times
Ezzard Charles 2 times
Roland La Starza 2 times
Archie Moore 1 time
Joe Louis 1 time
Don Cockrell 1 time

Charles is acknowledged as the greatest light heavyweight of alltime and one of the greatest heavyweights. He fought 122 times as a pro.
Moore fought 229 times.
LaStarza was acknowledged as the best defensive fighter of alltime. The first bout at St Nicks was very close. My Dad was at the fight and he thinks that LaStarza won.
The second fight at the Polo Grounds was when Marciano made the decision to go through LaStarza's defense and hit his arms so hard and so often that he broke all the bloodvessels in LaStarza's arms and caused him to need surgury on both of his arms.
We all know how great Walcott and Louis were even though Louis wasn't at his best, he was still dangerous! Marciano knocked him through the ropes in the 11th round

The other thing to remember is that most of these guys not only all fought at least 70-80 times as a Pro but most had over 100 ameteur fights. We aren't talking the bums that Tyson fought.
Marciano fought warriors and experienced fighters and the competition in the 1940's and 1950's was fierce!

There is no way that Tyson would last 15 rounds with Marciano or alot of these other guys for that matter!
Remember what most boxing experts say, Marciano pound for pound was the hardest puncher of alltime and had extraordinary endurance and the ability to take a punch. He never lost a fight and also remember the respect that Ali at 27 had for a 46 year old man who hadn't put on the gloves in 13 years and weighed about 210 lbs! Marciano knocked Ali down at 46 with a bodyshot for chrissakes! Not only that but at 46, he was ready to fight Ali all out in 3 minute rounds and a real fight. This guy was tough and any Boxing Historian from Bert Sugar to Art Rust jr. would tell you that Marciano would wipe the floor with Tyson!
Rocky would eat Tyson alive!

Sonny Liston was better than Tyson and another guy forgotten today but known by Boxing historians and a very big man was Jim Jeffries. I'm not talking about the Jeffries who came out of a long retirement to fight Johnson but a prime Jeffries was a great fighter and like 225 lbs. A very big man!
Ezzard Charles was also better than Tyson and Ken Norton was better than Tyson.

Don't underestimate Sonny Listons jab. It was so powerful that he knocked guys out with the jab. Art Rust always felt that Liston had the second best jab behind Ali and Liston took the dive in Maine and quit in Miami! He was a bully like Duran and Tyson would of done the same thing with the great fighters!
He would of either quit or left himself open to be knocked out!

Not only am I well versed on boxing but boxed myself for 10 years in NJ just to keep in shape and asked alot of guys at the Dunn Gym in Elizabeth about Tyson as well as many other fighters and 95% said he was overated and would self destruck and he has and is.
The guys just not that good. If he had continued to work at his craft and stayed with Rooney and Teddy Atlas and listened, he had the potential to be a very good fighter but I see no boxing skills, no stamina, a fair chin, a unwillingness to use the jab or go to the body but only the head and he gets hit!

Like I said before about Liston, I sincerely doubt he would have had the heart to take Tyson down. The guy was worse of a bully than Iron Mike ever was but the difference was that Sonny would just quit when the going got tough.

As for Kenny Norton, to better guage how he would have fared against Tyson, all you have to do is take a look at his fight with George Foreman in 1973 or 74, (not 100% sure of the year.) The beating George laid on him still puts the fear of God in me. It showed one thing, while he was a big solid fighter who's style always gave stylists trouble, he just couldn't take the big bombs. Mike would have done the same thing to Norton that Foreman did.

Thanks for the extended info about Marciano. That is some very interesting stuff. I don't take anything away from him and he was indeed a legend in the sport but I still don't think he takes Tyson.

What almost everyone forgets with Mike was his "peekaboo" style of defence that made him extremely frustrating to fight against when he wasn't laying the big shots on you. Even standing toe to toe Mike was very hard to lay a good, clean shot on. Getting solid body blows was next to impossible. He didn't become predictable and easy to hit until around the time of the Douglas fight. I disagree that his chin was suspect because that was the one thing keeping Mike up in that fight. Hell, Lennox Lewis had to shove and elbow a SHOT Tyson to put him down. Glass-jaws don't go down like that.

While Rocky was tough as nails and a chin to match, he never faced a bull in a chinashop quite like Mike Tyson. (Ali faced Foreman but even Big George wasn't as downright scary as Iron Mike.)

Good Morning Chris,

Regarding Liston, I see your point but think that Tyson has less of a heart than he did and Tyson being short would play right into Listons hands and his jab. Tyson never faced such a supurb jab as Listons. We can't count Holmes because when they fought Holmes was through.
Norton we could debate although I think Norton defeated Ali 2 times that they fought and broke his jaw and again his weird style of fighting and height would enable him to beat Tyson.
Lennox Lewis was toying with Tyson, purposely inflicting pain on him instead of finishing him off. Anybody who knows boxing knows that Lewis was being sadistic and trying to not only hurt Tyson but also humiliate him.
When we are talking about Marciano, we are speaking of a legend and a man who had such power and stamina and a will to win and both were about the same height and I in no way would see Rocky losing. He would work on Tyson's arms and body like Tyson never saw and Tyson didn't have the jab to keep him away and remember what the man with the greatest jab Ali said about Marciano as a 46 year old man and how hard it was to hit him. People don't truly realize or understand the quality of fighter in the 1940's and 1950's. These guys were way better than the 1980's or 1990's top guys and that one fight poll with all the experts had Marciano at 3 and Tyson at 10 but remember even Angie Dundee when he found out that Rocky knocks out Ali in the 13th round admitted it went about where he thought it would!
The fight doctor Ferdie Pacheco, another Ali man was honest and admitted the a 46 year old man knocked down a 27 year old man with a bodypunch. Rocky would of done things to Tyson that he never experienced before and he had the heart. Tyson never did!
Regarding this fear item, I agree that Tyson walked through his early opponents because they were defeated before the fight even started and stunk as fighters. To compare a Marciano to a Bonecrusher Smith or Mitch Green or James Tillis or Marvis Frazier is not only an insult but ridiculous as well.
Tyson was great fighting a bunch of bums, once he had a guy stand up to him with a jab who also wasn't even a good fighter in Douglass, he got knocked on his ass. Marciano was never counted out and I'd love to see Tyson if the fight lasted in the 13th through 15th rounds which used to tell the real champs from the pretenders. Rocky also would be nailing him with 6 ounce gloves and I predict would break some of Tyson's ribs he'd hit his body so hard!
Regarding this so-called great Tyson defense, it hasn't looked to good the last 14 years and I already told how Marciano dealt with one of if not the greatest defensive masters of all time in Roland LaStarza when in their second fight he went right through it with a vicious arm attack which caused LaStarza to need surgury on both his arms. That's not some myth, that's an absolute fact! His bloodvessels were destroyed and he needed surgury. When in the last 50 years have you heard that happening to another fighter! Never!
No, Tyson has never faced a fighter like Marciano!

Regarding Marciano's chin, he was never hit hard by a guy who weighed more than 200 pounds, so what would happen when he was hit by a 220 pound Tyson?

Archie Moore dropped Marciano, Ezzard Charles (who was not the best light heavy ever) split his face with a punch, these guys were 180-190 pounds and didnt hit anywhere near as hard as Tyson.

Tyson studied Bill Caytons extensive Boxing collection for his whole teenage life when he wasnt training, Tyson mimicked all of his favorite fighters in his intial style and it showed.

He had the balance of Jack Dempsey, the ring savvy of Sammy Langford, the tenatiousness of Henry Armstrong, he was all of them rolled into one guy, formidable.

Sonny Liston fought anyone more than bums? who?all of them mostly club fighters, he beat Patterson because he outweighed him by 30 pounds and Floyd was petrified of him to begin with. He finally fought a good fighter who was just as big as him (Ali) and he folded like a chair. Liston? overrated.

So Ali was apparently dropped in this 'computer fight', big deal, he wasnt in shape and it didnt matter, even if it did happen, he just underestimated Rocky and lapsed, if it was a real fight Marciano never would have touched Ali, with those short stubby arms he'd be hitting air while Caccius danced.

Im not doubting Marciano's punching power or that he may have been the 'pound for pound' hardest puncher but theres a reason that they created different weight divisions and a 185lb guy fighting Tyson at 220 loses EVERY TIME, even if he is Rocky.

I also believe Rockys chin was overrated too.

Bert Sugar lauding Rocky's prowess is like Stan Fischler lauding Gordie Howe or Mark Messier as the two toughest hockey players ever.

The truth is the 'old timers' favour the 'old time fighters/players' and there's nothing you can do to change their minds, they all speak of the 'good ole days' like the present doesnt matter, when in reality , the present is 'all that matters'.

LaStarza was 185 pounds when he fought Rocky.

Cockell was a British bum.

Louis was close to 40, shot as a fighter when Rocky fought him, a pathetic shadow of his once great self.

Bert Sugar is not the only guy I'm basing it on but he knows a hell of alot more about boxing than we do and I did it for 10 years and spoke with a lot of guys who had been around the game.
Angie Dundee who was with Ali for 20 years as his trainer was honest and when told about the computer results that said Marciano would win in the 13th round said, "that's about right" and The fight doctor Ferdie Pacheco who was also with Ali all those years also confirmed that Ali was knocked down and in trouble breathing with a bodyshot from a 46 year old man.
Here are two guys with Ali for 20 years who everyone says was the greatest fighter ever and they ackowledge Marciano's greatness and his prowess.
Ali, after being knocked on his ass didn't take up Marciano's challenge to fight all out for real, but completely changed his attitude and asked for more money for the pain Marciano was inflicting on him in a simulated fight and at 46. He had nothing but respect for Marciano from that moment on and said to Dundee how hard he was to hit with a jab and I'm being told that Tyson would beat Marciano.
I present cold hard facts and opinions from Ali's men who I know are more knowledgeable than I could ever be about boxing, I've read for countless hours about these guys in the 1940's and 1950's from Boxing historians and former trainers and ex boxers, I've spoken to guys like Chuck Wepner who knows a little about the ins of boxing and I'm being told none of that matters and only consider Tyson up to age 23 or 24 but make him an alltimer.
Do we realize how ridiculous that sounds and biased!
That poll had Tyson 10th and I think even that's a little steep. I'd have him about 14th best heavyweight and if we went by this logic of only consider his best fights and make him an alltimer, I suppose almost every rookie of the year in all sports should be considered for the HOF. Hell they were great for one year right!
That's comical and is especially funny when I'm asked to only consider his first few years up to the age of 23 or 24. That's also comical.
Don't people realize that makes the whole point. If you in any way have to cherrypick a person's career, then they couldn't have been great in the first place!
Part of what is being great is doing it when you aren't at your peak or making the clutch play or punch when you aren't at your best and having more of a career than 23 or 24 when every other great boxer was still great to at least 30 or so!
It's like I said months ago, Mickey Mantle can't escape his last 4 years and say he hit .309 lifetime. No he hit .298 lifetime because he played from 1965-68 and that's what his numbers say. .298- not a .300 hitter!
Mantle knew this and never made excuses but guys here are making 20 excuses for Tyson. If you need excuses, then he isn't that good!

Maybe Marciano had a punchers chance againast Ali but i cant see him landing any punches with his 65 inch reach.

I think Pacheco and Dundee were senile when asked about Ali vs Marciano.

As far as beating the greatest? Joe Frazier gave Ali fits and if you compare Frazier to Tyson;

Size - even
strength - Tyson
speed - Tyson
Punching power - Tyson
chin - Frazier by a hair
Endurance - even

Tyson was better than Frazier, he would have gave Ali fits too.
and i'll always say the Tyson of 1986 would beat or at least hospitalize just about any heavy who ever laced them up.

2,5,10,gm,

I love your line about Dundee and Pacheco but it doesn't answer the question and lets for argument sake say that I'm agreeing with you about 1986 which I'm not but say I am. Are we saying that one year makes an alltimer as all the other guys seem to be saying or peaked at age 23 or 24 but forget everything else.
If we are, you made my point for me!

2,5,10,gm,

I love your line about Dundee and Pacheco but it doesn't answer the question and lets for argument sake say that I'm agreeing with you about 1986 which I'm not but say I am. Are we saying that one year makes an alltimer as all the other guys seem to be saying or peaked at age 23 or 24 but forget everything else.
If we are, you made my point for me!
Part of what made Ali great was not just up to 1967 but the fact that he came back after 1970 and beat Foreman to win the title back. That in itself was great when he used his brains and allowed Foreman to punch himself out and then went in for the kill!
Again, part of being great is when you past your peak and you are still successful like a Roger Clemens at age 42 and still a great pitcher or Tom Seaver still winning 16 games at age 40 with no fastball or Greg Maddox still winning 15 games at 38. Part of being great is still being a success past your peak. How many clutch sky hooks did Kareem hit in those title runs in the 1980's past his prime. Bobby Orr on one leg being the best player on the ice in the 1976 Canada Cup. Gordie Howe at age 49 still scoring 96 points. Jim Brown still being the best 9 years after he began and never missed a step! Gale Sayers in 1969 on a 1-13 team and with half the speed and mobility he had before his knee injury becoming a tackle to tackle runner and leading the NFL with 1032 yds. Willis Reed on one leg in 1972-73 getting one more bit of milage out of his body and winning a second championship and being named Playoff MVP again on one leg! Ted Williams hitting .316 in 1960 at age 42 and homering in his last at bat.
Part of being the best is doing it when you are either past your peak or knocked down in boxing and you get back up to win the title like a Marciano with Moore. It's no shame in being down but the great ones come back whether from injury or losses or disappointments.
Tyson lost to Douglass and never came back. Not a champion or an alltimer!

Liston didn't fold in a boxing sense, he was mobbed up and took dives. We never would know what Liston would do because he never truly fought Ali. It's a shame but those are the facts!

Yeah and Marciano Won those fights. Rocky KO'd Charles, KO'd Archie Moore. That's what Marciano was known for.... being a Rock. You couldn't stop the guy, simple as that.

As for Tyson, after Buster beat him he lost every big fight he HAD to win. Holyfield out boxed him, so mch so Tyson knew where their last fight was going so he took a chunk out of Evanders ear. Lewis... down goes Tyson. Williams.... down goes Tyson. Tyson before the Buster Douglas fight was on the verge of becoming the #1 monster all time.

I'm not saying the Tyson of post 1992 would beat the greats, i'm speaking of the young Tyson.

If you ask me, those two Razor Ruddock fights took alot out of Mike.

And speaking of underachievers, how about Ruddock? This cat had it all and was too stupid to listen to his trainers, there havent been many natural prospects like Donovan Ruddock, what a left hook/uppercut/"THE SMASH".

Tommy Morrison vs Ruddock was a war!