Boxing Thread 2K12

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Donaire is just trying to kill any hype job Rigo created by calling him out. Whats new a fighter wins a decent fight and he calls out the closest top 10 p4pd'er, its what they do. Donaire should have no obligation to fight this guy, he's not a mandatory and he brings no money to the table. Hell he has 9 professional fights. I am all for them fighting down the road if Rigo can put a run together, otherwise no one knows him. Donaire is on to bigger and better. Vazquez a good fight for his first at 122 then its on to the Jap and Arce if they choose to except.

Cotto should stick to his gun. 150 or no fight. Cotto has Arum by the balls this time and its great to see. I hope Cotto has learned not to except a ****ty deal. Just because your the "B" side you should put yourself at a disadvantage and going down to 147 would be.

I expected Rigo to call him out, or Toshiaki Nishioka (more so Donaire because he's obviously the most well known) in order to try and get himself out there. As we all know, Rigo isn't well known unless you are a REAL hardcore fan of the sport.

I can see the fight possibly being made well down the road this year or early next year. Hopefully by then Rigo has 3-4 more wins, and can bring something to the table other than a flapping mouth.

Donaire has a clear agenda for this year with Vazquez, Arce and Nishioka (although I also heard he wanted Rafael Marquez win or lose against Nishioka for the name value). The only thing I wonder about is his status with Top Rank, when it comes down to possibly leaving and him being tied up like last year for months on end after a highlight KO. Hopefully his legal team doesn't make the same mistake twice with that.

The thing with Cotto/Mayweather/Pacman is that Cotto isn't looking for a payday like a lot of other opponents. Most forget that outside of Mayweather and Manny, Cotto is THE draw. Imagine a Cinco de Mayo fight between Cotto and Canelo! The draw, money, and atmosphere would be epic. Cotto, I really hope doesn't bend to Arum and give in. Hopefully he stands tall and stands proud to realize HE is running the show when it comes to his next opponent.

[Flyers2001]

April 28th on HBO, Hopkins - Dawson rematch. who cares?

Gamboa and Rios in discussions because neither could set an opponent. Let's get it on!

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

April 28th on HBO, Hopkins - Dawson rematch. who cares?

Gamboa and Rios in discussions because neither could set an opponent. Let's get it on!

Who cares is right. It was a brutal match when it was initially set a year ago, and it's not changed. Terrible, ugly matchup in a division that can offer so much better.

Gamboa vs. Rios... man, the thought of that war has me praying to the fight gods the fight gets made. Love two world class fighters hooking up to see who's 0 has got to go!

Donaire has taken to Twitter to pretty much blast away on Rigo's request for a shot at him. Some pretty funny stuff, and valid points in that Rigo wants a pay day and to have a name making fight. Seeing how the Rigo/Ramos fight sold less than 400 tickets, and Rigo only made $51K for the fight, its hard to say Donaire doesn't have a point.

[Flyers2001]

Seems like the momemtum is heading to:

Floyd vs. Cotto May 5th (154 lbs) at the MGM Grand

Pacman vs. Bradley June 9th (147 lbs) at outdoor arena in Vegas

I would expect the announcements to be done pretty close together.

[JKidd]

That's what I'm seeing as well.

Cotto, thankfully, hasn't budged on his 150 weight limit with Pacman, and that has pissed Bob Arum off to no end. It's pathetic that Arum can get Margo to agree to 150 with Manny, but won't give Cotto the same benefit because of the danger that poses to Manny and him getting beat. What a piece of **** Bob Arum is and always will be.

Bradley vs. Manny bores the piss out of me. Hopefully Manny makes quick work of him though and we get a highlight KO.

Cotto vs. Mayweather... I see it being a fun fight, but I see Mayweather beating the hell out of Cotto, especially because Cotto has a thing for getting hit with straight punches or upper cuts. Mix in the godly hand speed advantage Mayweather will have and the ability to avoid most of the punches Cotto will throw by slips or rolls, I don't see it being all that competitive unless Cotto hurts Floyd early.

[tim13]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

April 28th on HBO, Hopkins - Dawson rematch. who cares?

I care because I'm a big Hopkins fan but it's possibly the last fight on earth I would want for him next.

Dawson is a boring fighter with an even more boring personality. Remember how Dawson acted right after the last fight with his "no rematch" and generally sh*tty attitude? For the life of me I can't understand why they would give Dawson a rematch now that the tables have turned. Dawson flat out cannot make money on his own so why Bernard and GB would give him this pay day is beyond me. I mean, what is the worst that could happen? He vacates the belt? He'd still be the Ring champ which is what most people pay the most attention to now anyway. It's also hard for me to believe they couldn't have made more money fighting someone else. Not saying he's the guy to make more money with, but I'd much rather have seen the opportunity go to a guy like Cloud.

That being said, I do love going to Hopkins fights in AC so here's hoping it will be another good night out.

As for the other fights that I don't feel like quoting you guys on, Mayweather going to 154 for Cotto would surprise me. I've been reading 150.

As for the Pacquiao-Bradley fight, I'm not so sure that's as straight forward as some people think. I said the same thing going into the Marquez fight and just about everybody disagreed with me but I just don't think of highly of Pacquiao in a fair fight as most people do. I'm not saying I don't think he'll win; I do, but a close or disputed decision wouldn't surprise me. Say what you will about Bradley but he competes. No one gave Peterson a shot against Khan but you saw what happened.

As for Donaire, what bantamweight is a draw? Especially in America? Montiel and Rafa Marquez are the only big names I can think of off the top of my head and he already killed one of them and the other is past it. Of course Rigondeaux is looking for a pay day but it's not like he's some unproven 20 year old with 9 pro fights. It's obvious to anyone with eyes that he's the real deal.

And yeah, Gamboa-Rios has fight of the year written all over it.

[Flyers2001]

I have to disagree.

Bernard giving him a pay day? Bernard's PPV #'s are terrible. He is more known than Chad, but most people that know Hopkins usually don't buy his fights when on PPV because of his style not being so fan friendly.

Dawson is Bernard's mandatory. It is also known that he ducked Dawson prior to Dawson losing to Pascal in what was considered an off night. Hopkins would have a tough time retaining the title champion if he didn't fight Dawson again or someone as credible. Fact is no one with a credible name around 170-175 wants to fight Hopkins because of all the BS, and there are better money options outside of Hopkins.

GBP has real no dec. in who Hopkins fights or dec upon money. Hopkins has no contract with GBP to honor other than using them in a similar style to what Floyd does. Handle the paper work.



122 lber's with more money would be Arce. Its not just American's but PR's and most of all Mexicans. Before Rigo gets close, Donaire would go north for a huge pay day against JML. 9 ****ing fights, really. And I think Rigo will be great, I mentioned it over 3 months ago that I think he is the one who could give Nonito the most trouble, but there is a business side that some poeple need to understand.

Pac - Bradley is a tough fight. Bradley has a noggin. Pac and Bradley are known to win their fights in a simialr style. They outwork their opponent. I favor Pac in that and because he is faster and hits harder. But Timmy is not going to back down and will exchange with Pac because thats what he does. I think it would be a good fight.


*Early call for fight of the year, give me Ortiz - Berto. Both have too much to loose, IMO.

[JKidd]

I'm not disputing that Timothy Bradley shows up for a fight, no denying that. But, those are the kinds of guys Manny DESTROYS. If Timmy wants to show up for a fight, great. It'll be entertaining. But, Manny hits far too hard, far too often, and will thrive on a guy being right there to hit or exchange with.

To Bradley's credit, at least he'll show up for a fight unlike Joshua Clottey and Shane Mosley.
*I still have a hard time saying Shane Mosley NOT showing up for a fight.

I'll take Manny by KO or TKO in the later rounds.

---

As far as the 122 lb division, it isn't a "well known" division for sure in America. It's not until you get to 126 does the main stream media generally care (and I use main stream for the lack of a better term), and not until 135 until the paydays really fall into line. However, as Flyers mentions, PR and Mexico they're huge - but also over in Japan. Some massive paydays could be had over in Japan if those champs and challengers aren't willing to fight across the pond here in North America. Otherwise, Jorge Arce is where it's at right now. Outside of him, Nonito Donaire is THE payday below 130lbs. Showtime tried, admirably, to get more notoriety to the 122lb division with their bantamweight tourny, and I think it gained them a lot, to the point where they tried with Ramos/Rigo as a mainliner.... though that bombed horribly. They should keep it going and really see where it can go with guys like Abner Mares, Joseph Agbeko, Vic, Yonnhy Perez, Nonito Donaire, Chemito Moreno, and Eric Morel.

[tim13]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

I have to disagree.

Bernard giving him a pay day? Bernard's PPV #'s are terrible. He is more known than Chad, but most people that know Hopkins usually don't buy his fights when on PPV because of his style not being so fan friendly.

Dawson is Bernard's mandatory. It is also known that he ducked Dawson prior to Dawson losing to Pascal in what was considered an off night. Hopkins would have a tough time retaining the title champion if he didn't fight Dawson again or someone as credible. Fact is no one with a credible name around 170-175 wants to fight Hopkins because of all the BS, and there are better money options outside of Hopkins.

GBP has real no dec. in who Hopkins fights or dec upon money. Hopkins has no contract with GBP to honor other than using them in a similar style to what Floyd does. Handle the paper work.



122 lber's with more money would be Arce. Its not just American's but PR's and most of all Mexicans. Before Rigo gets close, Donaire would go north for a huge pay day against JML. 9 ****ing fights, really. And I think Rigo will be great, I mentioned it over 3 months ago that I think he is the one who could give Nonito the most trouble, but there is a business side that some poeple need to understand.

Pac - Bradley is a tough fight. Bradley has a noggin. Pac and Bradley are known to win their fights in a simialr style. They outwork their opponent. I favor Pac in that and because he is faster and hits harder. But Timmy is not going to back down and will exchange with Pac because thats what he does. I think it would be a good fight.


*Early call for fight of the year, give me Ortiz - Berto. Both have too much to loose, IMO.

Firstly, I'm not trying to be a d*ck but I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with. Hopkins may not be Mayweather but he sh*ts all over Dawson in every single way as far as marketability is concerned. His fight with Pascal was HBO's highest rated fight in two years. His PPV numbers may not be great but this isn't a PPV fight. And at least he can get on PPV. Would Dawson have gotten on PPV if not for Hopkins? Of course he wouldn't have.

Hopkins got a $3 million purse to fight Winky Wright, a $2.5 million purse to fight Carl Daniels, he's fought countless huge names and made huge money in the process, he's beaten a laundry list of great fighters, etc. etc. Basically, he could fight anyone he wants and get the same purse he'd get against Dawson. Dawson, on the other hand... please. I'd be shocked if he ever made more than the 800k he made against Hopkins. Hopkins made 15 mil against De La Hoya. Obviously DLH made that fight but Dawson will never be in a position to make that kind of money. Ever. Because he simply isn;t a draw, even as an opponent.

Just look to the fight being held in AC for all the evidence you need. They can't hold the fight anywhere else because Dawson is a nobody. People will only come to watch Hopkins. And people will watch this fight based on Hopkins alone. Even non-boxing fans. He's 47 years old; anybody can get into that. He's going for another record again too; oldest man to defend a title.

I also very much disagree with the "Hopkins ducked Dawson theory." Again, Dawson brings nothing to the table financially and never has. When he was supposedly ducking Dawson he was fighting the likes of Pavlik, Calzaghe and Roy Jones; all much bigger earnings than he would've got fighting Dawson. Notice Dawson couldn't get any other fights either besides with past it fighters like Johnson and Tarver. And Hopkins put on a show against those fighters while Dawson just pitter pattered his way to relatively boring decisions. And then he got f*cked up by Pascal of all people who I wouldn't say Hopkins beat easily but certainly thoroughly dominated him down the stretch of both fights. The only iffy fight in the time Hopkins was supposedly ducking Dawson was Ornelas and that was because he wanted a tune up fight in Philadelphia while Roy was fighting down under. Dawson, on the other hand, still hasn't done anything impressive whatsoever since beating Adamek 5 years ago.

As for him keeping the Ring title, I was hoping he would've fought Bute, which would've been a bigger and better fight than this one, so the title would've been up for grabs there just as it is here. I also have to disagree with the notion that "no one with a credible name around 170-175 wants to fight Hopkins because of all the BS." More like he's 47 and they don't want a loss to an old man on their CV. Cleverly? Cloud? Those guys would cut off a finger to get a fight with Hopkins. Pascal? Probably not, because he knows Hopkins is a different type of animal than he is. As for the SMWs, he'd thoroughly embarrass all those robotic Europeans, Froch included. He'd be a huge step up in class for Bute and my money would certainly be on Hopkins if they were to fight. Bernard has forgotten more than Bute has ever shown in a boxing ring. As I said earlier, Ward would beat Hopkins and that's it.

Dawson has a decent chance because his style is troublesome for Bernard but I love how a lot of people concluded after one round that Dawson has Bernard's number. Let's wait and see what happens when the fragile Dawson has to deal with him for more than a round. Just like he said before the first Pascal fight, "there will come a time in the fight when he realizes what he got himself into, that this old man doesn't fight like an old man, and it will all go downhill for him from there. And that's exactly what happened. Defensive, tactical, boring, whatever you want to call Bernard; he's a fighter. Can Dawson say the same?


As for GBP having no real say, you're right to an extent, but he is a partner in the company and they certainly discuss all this stuff and work it out together. I would have just thought that they would have been able to push him in a different direction.

Like I said, I'll be there watching the fight because I love to see greatness in action but I hate the matchup. It is what it is.

Moving on...

I didn't think of Arce, but that's because he's another one who is over the hill. Much like Montiel, people would think they'd be in for a slugfest but I just don't think it would be much of a fight. Of course there are financial issues with Rigondeaux but he is obviosuly the best opponent available. They should fight within a year and a half, tops. Rigo may only have 9 fights, but Donaire only had 18 before he got Darchinyan, and had fought absolute nobodys up tp that point, and Donaire didn't defect from a country where he couldn't fight professionally.

And Ortiz-Berto, way to go out on a limb there. Kind of like how I did with Gamboa-Rios.

[Flyers2001]

Its funny because you say Dawson is not a draw, but you are claiming Hopkins is.

The first fight should have never been on PPV to begin with. HBO or Showtime probably didn't want to pay their requested purses so they gambled and took the ppv route. Hopkins has never been a PPV draw. In the limited fights Hopkins has faught on PPV, he was probably the B side in all except 1 or 2.

Notable Hopkins Fights

Winky - Even, they needed a weigh-in fight to sell it to the fans.
Oscar - Oscar easily the draw
Calzaghe - Joe was the draw
Tito - Tito easily the draw
Pavlik - Sorry it goes to Kelly.

The bottom line is Hopkins has no one else to fight or he would have taken a different fight. Dawson could have easily gone on to fight Pascal or seriously looked at coming down to 168.


The Duck Job happened in 2009.

Hopkins, In 2007 beat Winky who came off a lay-off and never ever weighed as much as he did to fight Hopkins, a fight that no one wanted to watch. Hopkins then got beat by a supper middle-weight (Calzaghe) and lost to another blown up middleweight (pavlik). All fights you mentioned that took place before 2009.

Meanwhile, Dawson came off big wins against arguably 2 borderline hof'rs in Tarver and Johnson in 2008. Hopkins had the title of "champion" at 175, but Dawson was the man to beat. Check out what Hopkins did in 2009, when Dawson did nothing but call him out. Hopkins at the time had no other offers and it was the most financially sound fight to take. It was a duck job and it was blown up because since Hopkins beat Tarver to become champion, he didn't fight another legit Light Heavy until Jones, if you call him legit at this stage.

I like Hopkins, I've met and spoke to him several times down at Joe Hands gym, but like most fighters throughout history he ducked a fight. As much as I can criticize Hopkins I can easily turn around and compliment him on a unbievable career he has had.

In the end Hopkins is doing what he needs to do and taking the fight that means the most, esp. since most people think he faked the injury to get out the fight to begin with.

[Flyers2001]

The best fight availible, after Vasquez Jr, for Donaire would be Nishioka at 122. He's the champion. After that he should not think twice and move to where the money is at. 126. JML, Salido, John, Gonzalez, and Cabellaro.

I didn't mention Gamboa, because I don't think he will be there and Mikey Garcia obviously.


Rigo = High Risk, little reward.


**You can always go out on a limb and predict someone like Kirkland in a fight of the year. Thats risky...

[JKidd]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

The best fight availible, after Vasquez Jr, for Donaire would be Nishioka at 122. He's the champion. After that he should not think twice and move to where the money is at. 126. JML, Salido, John, Gonzalez, and Cabellaro.

I didn't mention Gamboa, because I don't think he will be there and Mikey Garcia obviously.


Rigo = High Risk, little reward.


**You can always go out on a limb and predict someone like Kirkland in a fight of the year. Thats risky...

I mean really, that's all there is at 122, unless he wants to clean out 122 (which he said he wants to do) and then move up to 126.

WBA - Guillermo Rigondeaux
WBC - Toshiaki Nishioka
WBO - vacant, Donaire fights Vazquez Jr for the title in a couple weeks.
IBF - Takalani Ndlovu
IBO: Tshifiwa Munyai

I think the entire boxing world can't wait for him to keep moving up to 126. The fights you point out are scintillating propositions, among others (hell, even a "stay busy" fight at 126 can be against someone exciting and competitive with how deep the feathers are).

[tim13]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Its funny because you say Dawson is not a draw, but you are claiming Hopkins is..

Yes, clearly. Like I said, 2.5 mil against Carl f*cking Daniels.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

The first fight should have never been on PPV to begin with. HBO or Showtime probably didn't want to pay their requested purses so they gambled and took the ppv route. Hopkins has never been a PPV draw. In the limited fights Hopkins has faught on PPV, he was probably the B side in all except 1 or 2...

Completely agree. They were coming off the high from the Hopkins-Pascal fight and its 1.8 million viewers and, like you said, took a gamble.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Winky - Even, they needed a weigh-in fight to sell it to the fans....

Maybe so, but it worked. 3 mil is a figure Dawson will never ever pull in.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Oscar - Oscar easily the draw
Calzaghe - Joe was the draw
Tito - Tito easily the draw
Pavlik - Sorry it goes to Kelly.....

Agreed. The Oscar and Pavlik fights sold themselves (Oscar is Oscar and Pavlik was the great white hope) but Bernard did a lot to sell the other two, even though they still would've done well had he not. The stomping on the PR flag in San Juan and the "never lose to a white boy" statement were both headlines in the overall sports world, not just the boxing world.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

The bottom line is Hopkins has no one else to fight or he would have taken a different fight. Dawson could have easily gone on to fight Pascal or seriously looked at coming down to 168.

I guess so or else they wouldn't have done it but I would think Bute or even Cleverly would have been better options. As for Dawson going down to 168, you could say the same thing about Bernard. Nowhere in the world is a Froch/Kessler-Dawson fight an easier sell than a Froch/Kessler-Hopkins fight. Not even close.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

The Duck Job happened in 2009.

Hopkins, In 2007 beat Winky who came off a lay-off and never ever weighed as much as he did to fight Hopkins, a fight that no one wanted to watch. Hopkins then got beat by a supper middle-weight (Calzaghe) and lost to another blown up middleweight (pavlik). All fights you mentioned that took place before 2009..

Fair enough on Winky fighting above his weight, but Winky was still a great fighter at that point, and I really enjoyed that fight, but I'm a huge fan of technical fighters and the general public isn't. Bernard certainly had the advantage going in though. But he was still old as sh*t and that evened it out to an extent.

You had a typo there regarding Pavlik. Bernard wasted him in one of the most completely one sided 12 round fights I've ever seen.

And as for Calslappy and that con job he pulled off, I'm with Max Kellerman in that Bernard hasn't lost on my card since RJJ in 93.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Meanwhile, Dawson came off big wins against arguably 2 borderline hof'rs in Tarver and Johnson in 2008. Hopkins had the title of "champion" at 175, but Dawson was the man to beat...

Hopkins thoroughly embarrassed both of those guys and Dawson couldn't even make either of them taste the canvas other than a toatal flash knowckdown in the 12th round of the Tarver rematch. Speaking of making fighters taste the canvas, Tarver has one knock down since 07. Furthermore, Glen Johnson says Bernard is far and away the best fighter he ever fought and Tarver doesn't have to say anything because the ass kicking he took from Bernard says it all.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Check out what Hopkins did in 2009, when Dawson did nothing but call him out. Hopkins at the time had no other offers and it was the most financially sound fight to take. It was a duck job and it was blown up because since Hopkins beat Tarver to become champion, he didn't fight another legit Light Heavy until Jones, if you call him legit at this stage.

Right after the Pavlik fight Dawson started to talk, but he was also yapping to Calzaghe at the time too. Hopkins' response was that, one, he didn't want to derail the career of another young American fighter (commendable in my opinion) and two, that he really wanted to make the fight with Roy (a fight that meant more to him than any other for obvious reasons - and certainly made him more money than a fight with Dawson would have).

Where you and I disagree, I guess, is on Dawson's legitimacy as a light heavy. As a fighter, sure, he was very good, but there were more lucrative fights to be made against bigger names. For me, Dawson was the equivalent of Rigondeaux in the Donaire discussion. Just not worth it for a variety of reasons.

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

I like Hopkins, I've met and spoke to him several times down at Joe Hands gym, but like most fighters throughout history he ducked a fight. As much as I can criticize Hopkins I can easily turn around and compliment him on a unbievable career he has had.

In the end Hopkins is doing what he needs to do and taking the fight that means the most, esp. since most people think he faked the injury to get out the fight to begin with.

I've met him a bunch of times too and he's a pretty cool guy. Definitely full of himself but he's earned the right to be that way. All in all, I admire him as much or more than any athlete I've ever watched. What he does and how he's done it is just nothing short of phenomenal.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the ducking Dawson in 09 thing. As for the faking injury thing, it's well documented that Hopkins said he would continue fighting with one arm, and it's not the first time he volunteered to do that. I think to question his heart at this point, after all we've seen from him, is just beyond asinine.

I'll leave you with this quote from Bernard...

"I'm going out guns blazing in this fight, trust me. I will pull off my best performance in Atlantic City, and that's saying a lot. I have a history of making history in Atlantic City."

The history is already written, and Dawson is nothing more than the supporting actor.


P.S. How about this for a fight of the year candidate: DeMarco vs. Katsidis, thought to be on the undercard of Hopkins-Dawson.

[JKidd]

Mikey Garcia vs. Bernabe Concepcion has been added to Orlando Salido/JML II for Showtime.

I guess we can call it a step up in competition for Mikey, but, not what I was hoping. I see another KO notch added to his record.

[tim13]

I posted this in here once before but I thought I'd post it again since a new season just started last week. If you were to register now you wouldn't be too far behind the eight ball. You start with 3000 I believe. I'm currently in 4th with 12,450. First place has 15 something and 20th place has 5 something so one good bet and you could be right among the leaders. Seasons are 4 months long.

Mainly, it's just a good way to keep track of what fights are when and how good you are at calling fights.

Check it out...

www.boxpicks.com