Lemieux vs. The Great One

[Plateworker]

Originally Posted by VodkaFish

C'mon, there's no argument for Daigle.

Records-wise, Gretzky has a good number, sure, but stats-wise is different. When you start talking per game numbers, and make positional comparisons, Gretzky doesn't run away with much.

With baseball there'll always be a ton of mystery due to age and footage of some of the all-time greats. Most of the hockey greats are modern and we can see how they did it. I've always though watching these three play always tends to lead towards a re-ordering.

All you need to know is Gretz has more Assists than anyone else has points in the history of the game. No other statistics need to justify just how daunting that is. PPG, GPG, APG all mean nothing when comparing the final outcome. That stat alone is ridiculous...period.

This whole thing of if's is great but has no meaning or bearing. Do realize how many if's there are in sports. If Ted Williams did not lose 5 years of his life to war does he break Ruth's homerun record, If Barry Sanders does not retire in his prime does he shatter every record ever by a RB, If Ruth had not pitched all those years, how many HR's would he have had. If Mario was healthy if Orr was healthy....guess what they weren't and they didn't end of story. You have know way of knowing what so ever what they would have or might have done. Injuries are part of the career path some are worst than others, Some have none at all. That is the way it works. Could Mario have...I don't know....I doubt it.

[fightingfan]

wayne was the best. the point of the game is to win, the way to win is to put up points, which he did and was the best at doing it. he was the best plain and simple.

i dont care if someone could control the pace of the game, does orr have more points than wyne? nope. same with mario and messier

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by fightingfan

wayne was the best. the point of the game is to win, the way to win is to put up points, which he did and was the best at doing it. he was the best plain and simple.

i dont care if someone could control the pace of the game, does orr have more points than wyne? nope. same with mario and messier

Does Wayne have more Stanley Cup's then Messier ? NOPE !!!

Could he deliver the CUP after he was traded away from the power-house Oiler's ? NOPE !!

Did Messier ?? HE** YES !!!!

Give me a team of Mark Messier type of players and I will beat your Wayne Gretzky type of team any day of the week !!!!!!

[pens33]

Originally Posted by fansince65

Does Wayne have more Stanley Cup's then Messier ? NOPE !!!

Could he deliver the CUP after he was traded away from the power-house Oiler's ? NOPE !!

Did Messier ?? HE** YES !!!!

Give me a team of Mark Messier type of players and I will beat your Wayne Gretzky type of team any day of the week !!!!!!

A team full of Lemieux's would be sick.

[canuck2]

Originally Posted by fightingfan

wayne was the best. the point of the game is to win, the way to win is to put up points,

Not really. It's one way. Many offensive players are so poor in other areas they hurt the team.

Wayne was great. You cant argue with his numbers.

Mario was a better player then Wayne but due to injury, cancer and at times indifferent play due to his attitude he didnt have the career he could have. He did have the single greatest performance I have ever seen in 1987 when Canada beat Russia 2 games to 1 and every game was won 6-5. He was sick in this series.

Messier was perhaps the greatest leader of men sports in general may have seen. He was the epitomy of how you would mold a hockey player. Was there ever a better combination of toughness, skills and leadership. I doubt it.

I agree with AVas guy. I would take Messier over all of them.

[Cat Smasher]

Originally Posted by Tucker_316

Wayne played fully healthy during a longer period of time in the 80's on a stacked team that also helped him a lot.

Wayne is second to Mario.

Mario had some good players with him as well.

Coffey, Recchi,Stevens, Murphy, Mullen, Jagr, Francis, Tocchet, Straka, Naslund, Zubov, Olczyk, Hatcher, Lang, Murray, Kovalev, etc etc

It's about what happened, not about mights, what ifs, and maybe's.

Wayne is second to no one, sorry.

PS, I hate both of those pusses.

[canuck2]

Originally Posted by PaulAbbott

I didn't watch hockey back then, but I don't believe Mario quit because the game wasn't to his suit.... I believe he got a disease (Hodgkins) which destroyed his lower back. That doesn't say quit to me, that says he HAS to retire.

Also, EVERYONE whines at some point, people forget that for some reason because some players do it more often (ala Sidney Crosby). Coaches cry when someone gets a bad goal, Players cry when stuff doesn't go their way, goalies cry when there are people in their crease. EVERYONE DOES IT! People cry in baseball, hockey, cricket, and probably even ice curling. Get over it....

I know I haven't been a member here very long, but it seems like people are one way or the other about everything. He's good, he's not good, he cries, he doesn't cry. Is there no one who can find anything reasonably good and bad about players? I love Sidney Crosby, he whines sometimes, but thats counteracted by his awareness. I love Marc-Andre Fleury, he flops sometimes, but he also makes miraculous saves. I love Philadelphia, oh wait, no I don't.

Not trying to start a war of words, but honestly people.

IT's amazing people complain about how many threads are started by people who complain about Crosby bitching and whining.

Then they take a thread of three former great hockey players and talk about Crosby whining.

[canuck2]

Originally Posted by pens33

But he didn't. That book was written in 1998. He played until 2005-2006.

And he had every right to complain about clutching and grabbing, because it was ridiculous back then. Even from a hf.com point of view, there wasn't even any room for big hits, because the game was so f*ckin slow and boring.

The game was anything but slow and boring. Now its fast and unwatchable.

but mario was this big guy and he played in the clutch and grab era. Wayne was like a rope on the ice and was a small guy who could avoid a lot of what Mario went through. Mario did a lot of complaining and really I couldnt blame him. Wayne was a whiney bag of shiit most of the time on the ice. I think actually Mario had a tremondous amount of class and went through a whole lot more then Wayne did (that's not Wayne's fault though his career speaks for itself).

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by pens33

A team full of Lemieux's would be sick.

The thing with Mario was his "LAZYNESS" !!!
Even when he played junior he never reported for practice half the time , he would just show up and play the game , he was so talented his coaches just looked the other way .
Even in the NHL he never showed up for training camp , just played the odd EX game , just imagine what he could have done if he had a mean streak to go with his size and got himself in the best of shape he could possibly could be in .
More talented then Gretzky ?? HANDS DOWN !!! But Wayne worked at his game every day of his life , that's why he went as long as he did without severe injury ...

[PhlyerPhanatic]

Hate 'em both equally

Next Question??

[flex_buff_chest]

Originally Posted by fansince65

More talented then Gretzky ?? HANDS DOWN !!! But Wayne worked at his game every day of his life , that's why he went as long as he did without severe injury ...

EXACTLY...there were a lot of guys more talented then Gretzky, however he was smarter and had an amazing work ethic.

[canuck2]

Originally Posted by flex_buff_chest

EXACTLY...there were a lot of guysmore talented then Gretzky, however he was smarter and had an amazing work ethic.

No actually Wayne had incredible talent. He saw the ice better then anyone in the history of hockey. He just happened, like a guy like Jordan, to work just as hard. But not many guys had his talent.

[Killah_punk]

Originally Posted by flex_buff_chest

EXACTLY...there were a lot of guys more talented then Gretzky, however he was smarter and had an amazing work ethic.

Who's had more talent then Gretzky? Mario and Orr are the only ones i can think of.

[Cat Smasher]

Just gonna throw this out there, Gretzky always had a "goon" playing on his line back in the day. Makes his stats and play even more outstanding.

[canuck2]

Originally Posted by Cat Smasher

Just gonna throw this out there, Gretzky always had a "goon" playing on his line back in the day. Makes his stats and play even more outstanding.

Yea but how much more room did it give him.? It's not like Semenko was on the ice all the time either. He made his appearances.