Lemieux vs. The Great One

[Churla27]

Originally Posted by flex_buff_chest

This doesn't really make sense. It's not like he played 60 minutes a game and this took away 100 minutes of playing time.

Most likely he made most of the time in the box in the same game.

This doesnt really make sense? I'm sorry, but it's not that hard to figure out. Spending time in the PIM box equals= 0 minutes on the ice. You need to be on the ice to score

[flex_buff_chest]

Originally Posted by Churla27

This doesnt really make sense? I'm sorry, but it's not that hard to figure out. Spending time in the PIM box equals= 0 minutes on the ice. You need to be on the ice to score

How many minutes did he average a game? 20-25?

2 Minutes spent in the box is easily made up at any point during the game.

[pens33]

Originally Posted by Word

Coulda - woulda - shoulda.

The stats are the stats.

Trying to claim that a healthy Mario would have broken Gretzky's records is beyond pointless. The fact remains is he didn't, he wasn't, and it is over.

In a fairy tale world, if you want to play the coulda woulda shoulda game, then Mario could easily have broken all records as long as he was the only dude on the ice.

True. That having been said, Lemieux was better.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by pens33

True. That having been said, Lemieux was better.

Here is all Wayne Gretzky's records...

CAREER RECORDS


•MOST POINTS:
2,856 (1,485 games, 894 goals, 1,962 assists)
Second: Mark Messier - 1,855 (1,756 games, 694 goals, 1,193 assists)

•MOST POINTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
3,238 (2,856 regular season and 382 playoff)
Second: Mark Messier - 2,180 (1,885 regular season and 295 playoff)

•MOST GOALS:
894
Second: Gordie Howe, 801

•MOST GOALS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
1,016 (894 regular season and 122 playoff)
Second: Gordie Howe, 869 (801 regular season and 68 playoff)

•MOST ASSISTS:
1,962
Second: Mark Messier, 1,171

•MOST ASSISTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
2,222 (1,962 regular season and 260 playoff)
Second: Mark Messier, 1,357 (1,171 regular season and 186 playoff)

•MOST GOALS BY A CENTER:
894
Second: Marcel Dionne, 731

•MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER:
1,962
Second: Mark Messier, 1,171

•MOST POINTS BY A CENTER:
2,856
Second: Mark Messier, 1,855

•MOST 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
12
Second: Marcel Dionne, 10

•MOST CONSECUTIVE 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
12 (1979-80 to 1990-91)
Second: Mike Bossy, 9 (1977-78 to 1985-86)

•MOST 50-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Second: Guy Lafleur, 6

•MOST 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Second: Phil Esposito, 4

•MOST CONSECUTIVE 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
4 (1981-82 to 1984-85)
Second: Mike Bossy, 3 (1980-81 to 1982-83)

•MOST 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS:
15
Second: Mario Lemieux, 10

•MOST CONSECUTIVE 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS:
13 (1979-80 to 1991-92)
Second: Six players tied with 6

•MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
50 (37 three-goal games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games)
Second: Mike Bossy, 39 (30 three-goal games, nine four-goal games)

•MOST OVERTIME ASSISTS:
15
Second: Doug Gilmour, 13


•HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE:
1.321 (1,962 assists in 1,485 games)
Second: Mario Lemieux, 1.183 (881 assists in 745 games)
SINGLE SEASON RECORDS




•MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON:
215 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next (fifth): Mario Lemieux, 199 (1988-89, 80-game schedule)

•MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
255 (1984-85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games)
Next (sixth): Mario Lemieux, 218 (1988-89; 199 points in 76 regular season games and 19 points in 11 playoff games)


•MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON:
92 (1981-82, 80-game schedule)
Second: Gretzky, 87 (1983-84, 80-game schedule)

•MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
100 (1983-84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games)
Second: Gretzky, Lemieux and Brett Hull tied at 97

•MOST GOALS, 50 GAMES FROM START OF SEASON:
61 (1981-82 and 1983-84)
Third: 54 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON:
163 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next (eighth): 114 - Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky (1988-89, 80-game schedule)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
174 (1985-86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games)
Next (tied for 11th): 121 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89, 114 assists in 76 regular season games and seven assists in 11 playoff games)

•MOST POINTS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON:
215 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next (fifth): 199 - Mario Lemieux, 1988-89, 80-game schedule


•MOST GOALS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON:
92 (1981-82, 80-game schedule)
Next (third): 85 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89, 80-game schedule).

•MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER:
163 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next: Gretzky holds first through fifth positions

•MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
10 (1981-82, six three-goal games; three four-goal games; one five-goal game)
(Tied in 1983-84, six three-goal games, four four-goal games)
Next (third): 9 - Mike Bossy and Mario Lemieux

•LONGEST CONSECUTIVE ASSIST-SCORING STREAK:
23 games - 48 assists (1990-91)
Second: Adam Oates - 18 games - 28 assists (1992-93)

•LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK:
51 games - 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984)
Second: Mario Lemieux - 46 games - 39 goals, 64 assists for 103 points (1989-90)

•LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK FROM START OF SEASON:
51 games - 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points

•HIGHEST GOALS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON:
1.18 (1983-84, 87 goals in 74 games)
Second (tied): 1.15 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 69 goals in 60 games) and Wayne Gretzky (1981-82, 92 goals in 80 games)

•HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON:
2.04 (1985-86, 163 assists in 80 games)
Next (eighth): 1.52 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 91 assists in 60 games)

•HIGHEST POINTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON (AMONG PLAYERS WITH 50-OR-MORE POINTS):
2.77 (1983-84, 205 points in 74 games)
Next (third): 2.67 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 160 points in 60 games)

•MOST GOALS, ONE PERIOD:
4 (Tied with 10 other players)
Feb. 18, 1981, third period (Edmonton 9, St. Louis 2)


•MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME:
7 (tied with Billy Taylor)
Feb. 15, 1980 (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
Dec. 11, 1985 (Edmonton 12, Chicago 9)
Feb. 14, 1986 (Edmonton 8, Quebec 2)
Second: 6 - 23 players

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE ROAD GAME:
7 (tied with Billy Taylor)
Dec. 11, 1985 (Edmonton 12, Chicago 9)
Second: 6 - four players



•MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME, BY A PLAYER IN HIS FIRST NHL SEASON:
7 - Feb. 15, 1980 (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
Second: 6 - Gary Suter, April 4, 1986 (Calgary 9, Edmonton 3)

CAREER RECORDS - PLAYOFFS




•MOST PLAYOFF GOALS:
122
Second: 109 - Mark Messier

•MOST PLAYOFF ASSISTS:
260
Second: 186 - Mark Messier

•MOST PLAYOFF POINTS:
382 (122 goals and 260 assists)
Second: 295 - Mark Messier (109 goals and 186 assists).

•MOST GAME-WINNING GOALS IN PLAYOFFS:
24
Second: 19 - Claude Lemieux


•MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES IN PLAYOFFS:
10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
Second (tied): 7 - Maurice Richard (four three-goal games, two four-goal games, one five-goal game) and Jari Kurri (six three-goal games, one four-goal game)
SINGLE SEASON RECORDS - PLAYOFFS




•MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
47 (1985, 17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
Next: 44 - Mario Lemieux (1991, 16 goals, 28 assists in 23 games)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
31 (1988, 19 games)
Next (fourth): 28 - Mario Lemieux (1991, 23 games)

•MOST POINTS IN FINAL SERIES:
13 - three goals and 10 assists (1988, four games plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Second: 12 - four players

•MOST ASSISTS IN FINAL SERIES:
10 (1988, four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Second: 9 - three players tied

•MOST ASSISTS IN ONE SERIES (OTHER THAN FINAL):
14 - 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
(tied with Rick Middleton)
Second: 13 - Doug Gilmour, 1994 Conference Semifinals (seven games vs. San Jose) and Wayne Gretzky, 1987 Division Semifinal (five games vs. Los Angeles)

•MOST SHORTHANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
3 (1983, two vs. Winnipeg in Division Semi-Finals; one vs. Calgary in Division Finals)
(tied with five other players)
SINGLE GAME RECORDS -PLAYOFFS




•MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME:
6 - April 9, 1987 at Edmonton (Edmonton 13, Los Angeles 3)
(tied with Mikko Leinonen)
Next: 5 - 11 players tied

•MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD:
4 (1 goal, 3 assists) - April 12, 1987 at Los Angeles, third period (Edmonton 6, Los Angeles 3)
(tied with nine other players)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD:
3 - Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions. Gretzky has had three assists in one period five times. (Ray Bourque, three times; Toe Blake, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr, twice.)

•MOST SHORT-HANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME:
2 - April 6, 1983 at Edmonton (Edmonton 6, Winnipeg 3)
(tied with eight other players)
NHL ALL-STAR GAME RECORDS





•MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS:
13 (in 18 games played)
Second: 11 - Mario Lemieux (in eight games played)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE GAME: 4 (1983 Campbell Conference)/b>
(tied with three players)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE PERIOD: 4 (1983 Campbell Conference, third period)br>

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, ONE PERIOD:
4 (1983 Campbell Conference, third period)br> (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, CAREER:
25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
Second: 22 - Mario Lemieux (11 goals, nine assists in 8 games)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME ASSISTS, CAREER:
12 (tied with four players)
Second: 10 - Paul Coffey

END OF STORY GRETZKY IS THE BEST

[Boogeyman2383]

Originally Posted by fansince65

We almost agree on the top 5 , how does this look to you ?

!. Orr
2. Howe
3. Messier
4. Richard
5. Bourque

On second thought we don't agree on the top 5 at all ..

The Great One beats them all!

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by clydefrog

Here is all Wayne Gretzky's records...

CAREER RECORDS


•MOST POINTS:
2,856 (1,485 games, 894 goals, 1,962 assists)
Second: Mark Messier - 1,855 (1,756 games, 694 goals, 1,193 assists)

•MOST POINTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
3,238 (2,856 regular season and 382 playoff)
Second: Mark Messier - 2,180 (1,885 regular season and 295 playoff)

•MOST GOALS:
894
Second: Gordie Howe, 801

•MOST GOALS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
1,016 (894 regular season and 122 playoff)
Second: Gordie Howe, 869 (801 regular season and 68 playoff)

•MOST ASSISTS:
1,962
Second: Mark Messier, 1,171

•MOST ASSISTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
2,222 (1,962 regular season and 260 playoff)
Second: Mark Messier, 1,357 (1,171 regular season and 186 playoff)

•MOST GOALS BY A CENTER:
894
Second: Marcel Dionne, 731

•MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER:
1,962
Second: Mark Messier, 1,171

•MOST POINTS BY A CENTER:
2,856
Second: Mark Messier, 1,855

•MOST 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
12
Second: Marcel Dionne, 10

•MOST CONSECUTIVE 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
12 (1979-80 to 1990-91)
Second: Mike Bossy, 9 (1977-78 to 1985-86)

•MOST 50-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Second: Guy Lafleur, 6

•MOST 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Second: Phil Esposito, 4

•MOST CONSECUTIVE 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS:
4 (1981-82 to 1984-85)
Second: Mike Bossy, 3 (1980-81 to 1982-83)

•MOST 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS:
15
Second: Mario Lemieux, 10

•MOST CONSECUTIVE 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS:
13 (1979-80 to 1991-92)
Second: Six players tied with 6

•MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
50 (37 three-goal games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games)
Second: Mike Bossy, 39 (30 three-goal games, nine four-goal games)

•MOST OVERTIME ASSISTS:
15
Second: Doug Gilmour, 13


•HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE:
1.321 (1,962 assists in 1,485 games)
Second: Mario Lemieux, 1.183 (881 assists in 745 games)
SINGLE SEASON RECORDS




•MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON:
215 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next (fifth): Mario Lemieux, 199 (1988-89, 80-game schedule)

•MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
255 (1984-85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games)
Next (sixth): Mario Lemieux, 218 (1988-89; 199 points in 76 regular season games and 19 points in 11 playoff games)


•MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON:
92 (1981-82, 80-game schedule)
Second: Gretzky, 87 (1983-84, 80-game schedule)

•MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
100 (1983-84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games)
Second: Gretzky, Lemieux and Brett Hull tied at 97

•MOST GOALS, 50 GAMES FROM START OF SEASON:
61 (1981-82 and 1983-84)
Third: 54 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON:
163 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next (eighth): 114 - Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky (1988-89, 80-game schedule)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS:
174 (1985-86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games)
Next (tied for 11th): 121 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89, 114 assists in 76 regular season games and seven assists in 11 playoff games)

•MOST POINTS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON:
215 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next (fifth): 199 - Mario Lemieux, 1988-89, 80-game schedule


•MOST GOALS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON:
92 (1981-82, 80-game schedule)
Next (third): 85 - Mario Lemieux (1988-89, 80-game schedule).

•MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER:
163 (1985-86, 80-game schedule)
Next: Gretzky holds first through fifth positions

•MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
10 (1981-82, six three-goal games; three four-goal games; one five-goal game)
(Tied in 1983-84, six three-goal games, four four-goal games)
Next (third): 9 - Mike Bossy and Mario Lemieux

•LONGEST CONSECUTIVE ASSIST-SCORING STREAK:
23 games - 48 assists (1990-91)
Second: Adam Oates - 18 games - 28 assists (1992-93)

•LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK:
51 games - 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984)
Second: Mario Lemieux - 46 games - 39 goals, 64 assists for 103 points (1989-90)

•LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK FROM START OF SEASON:
51 games - 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points

•HIGHEST GOALS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON:
1.18 (1983-84, 87 goals in 74 games)
Second (tied): 1.15 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 69 goals in 60 games) and Wayne Gretzky (1981-82, 92 goals in 80 games)

•HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON:
2.04 (1985-86, 163 assists in 80 games)
Next (eighth): 1.52 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 91 assists in 60 games)

•HIGHEST POINTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON (AMONG PLAYERS WITH 50-OR-MORE POINTS):
2.77 (1983-84, 205 points in 74 games)
Next (third): 2.67 - Mario Lemieux (1992-93, 160 points in 60 games)

•MOST GOALS, ONE PERIOD:
4 (Tied with 10 other players)
Feb. 18, 1981, third period (Edmonton 9, St. Louis 2)


•MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME:
7 (tied with Billy Taylor)
Feb. 15, 1980 (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
Dec. 11, 1985 (Edmonton 12, Chicago 9)
Feb. 14, 1986 (Edmonton 8, Quebec 2)
Second: 6 - 23 players

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE ROAD GAME:
7 (tied with Billy Taylor)
Dec. 11, 1985 (Edmonton 12, Chicago 9)
Second: 6 - four players



•MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME, BY A PLAYER IN HIS FIRST NHL SEASON:
7 - Feb. 15, 1980 (Edmonton 8, Washington 2)
Second: 6 - Gary Suter, April 4, 1986 (Calgary 9, Edmonton 3)

CAREER RECORDS - PLAYOFFS




•MOST PLAYOFF GOALS:
122
Second: 109 - Mark Messier

•MOST PLAYOFF ASSISTS:
260
Second: 186 - Mark Messier

•MOST PLAYOFF POINTS:
382 (122 goals and 260 assists)
Second: 295 - Mark Messier (109 goals and 186 assists).

•MOST GAME-WINNING GOALS IN PLAYOFFS:
24
Second: 19 - Claude Lemieux


•MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES IN PLAYOFFS:
10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
Second (tied): 7 - Maurice Richard (four three-goal games, two four-goal games, one five-goal game) and Jari Kurri (six three-goal games, one four-goal game)
SINGLE SEASON RECORDS - PLAYOFFS




•MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
47 (1985, 17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
Next: 44 - Mario Lemieux (1991, 16 goals, 28 assists in 23 games)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
31 (1988, 19 games)
Next (fourth): 28 - Mario Lemieux (1991, 23 games)

•MOST POINTS IN FINAL SERIES:
13 - three goals and 10 assists (1988, four games plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Second: 12 - four players

•MOST ASSISTS IN FINAL SERIES:
10 (1988, four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Second: 9 - three players tied

•MOST ASSISTS IN ONE SERIES (OTHER THAN FINAL):
14 - 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
(tied with Rick Middleton)
Second: 13 - Doug Gilmour, 1994 Conference Semifinals (seven games vs. San Jose) and Wayne Gretzky, 1987 Division Semifinal (five games vs. Los Angeles)

•MOST SHORTHANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR:
3 (1983, two vs. Winnipeg in Division Semi-Finals; one vs. Calgary in Division Finals)
(tied with five other players)
SINGLE GAME RECORDS -PLAYOFFS




•MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME:
6 - April 9, 1987 at Edmonton (Edmonton 13, Los Angeles 3)
(tied with Mikko Leinonen)
Next: 5 - 11 players tied

•MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD:
4 (1 goal, 3 assists) - April 12, 1987 at Los Angeles, third period (Edmonton 6, Los Angeles 3)
(tied with nine other players)

•MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD:
3 - Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions. Gretzky has had three assists in one period five times. (Ray Bourque, three times; Toe Blake, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr, twice.)

•MOST SHORT-HANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME:
2 - April 6, 1983 at Edmonton (Edmonton 6, Winnipeg 3)
(tied with eight other players)
NHL ALL-STAR GAME RECORDS





•MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS:
13 (in 18 games played)
Second: 11 - Mario Lemieux (in eight games played)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE GAME: 4 (1983 Campbell Conference)/b>
(tied with three players)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE PERIOD: 4 (1983 Campbell Conference, third period)br>

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, ONE PERIOD:
4 (1983 Campbell Conference, third period)br> (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, CAREER:
25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
Second: 22 - Mario Lemieux (11 goals, nine assists in 8 games)

•MOST ALL-STAR GAME ASSISTS, CAREER:
12 (tied with four players)
Second: 10 - Paul Coffey

END OF STORY GRETZKY IS THE BEST

First you have to be a fan of said player , never was a fan of either "GRETZKY or LEMIEUX" !!!!

Just don't like players that need a policeman to do their dirty work for them , not arguing the fact Gretz holds every record in the book and is supposed to be the greatest hockey player that ever lived , but I have the right to disagree , the greatest player that ever lived to play the game to me was "BOBBY ORR" bar none !!!!!!

[Word]

Originally Posted by fansince65

First you have to be a fan of said player , never was a fan of either "GRETZKY or LEMIEUX" !!!!

Just don't like players that need a policeman to do their dirty work for them , not arguing the fact Gretz holds every record in the book and is supposed to be the greatest hockey player that ever lived , but I have the right to disagree , the greatest player that ever lived to play the game to me was "BOBBY ORR" bar none !!!!!!

I think the issue has more to deal with quantitative facts to back up the opinion.

In your opinion, Bobby Orr was the best.

Someone else might have the opinion that Alexander Daigle was the best.

Both are opinions. Your view holds substantially more weight than someone thinking Daigle is the best...just as someone who puts Gretzky at the top holds substantially more weight than your view of Bobby Orr.

[VodkaFish]

I don't know about that. I've heard many say Bobby Orr was the greatest player of all-time and there's a serious argument to be made. If we're measuring "talent", I probably would agree and put both Orr and Mario Lemieux ahead of Wayne Gretzky. This, of course, is one of the most common and beloved of all hockey arguments

[Word]

Originally Posted by VodkaFish

I don't know about that. I've heard many say Bobby Orr was the greatest player of all-time and there's a serious argument to be made. If we're measuring "talent", I probably would agree and put both Orr and Mario Lemieux ahead of Wayne Gretzky. This, of course, is one of the most common and beloved of all hockey arguments

Unquestioningly there is an argument to be made...just as there is likely an argument to be made about Daigle.

The argument for Daigle wouldn't have much to offer in comparison, but an argument nonetheless.

And some would point to the record book and have much much more support for the view that Gretzky is #1 as well.

I think in the future, with more and more people forgetting about Orr and Gretzky and Mario (all of which many of us have seen play), people will rely on just the stats. And the stats, the records, definitely favor Gretzky. Once you remove the emotional from it, Gretzky comes out on top.

[VodkaFish]

C'mon, there's no argument for Daigle.

Records-wise, Gretzky has a good number, sure, but stats-wise is different. When you start talking per game numbers, and make positional comparisons, Gretzky doesn't run away with much.

With baseball there'll always be a ton of mystery due to age and footage of some of the all-time greats. Most of the hockey greats are modern and we can see how they did it. I've always though watching these three play always tends to lead towards a re-ordering.

[Word]

Originally Posted by VodkaFish

C'mon, there's no argument for Daigle.

Not for you, or for me. You ask his mom and I bet she has a different view.

There is an argument for anyone. It all comes down to how good of an argument.

We both agree that Daigle has no good arguments.

Just as you point out, there is much more to compare Gretzky and Lemieux and Orr.

And when it all falls out in the end, few people are going to run a statistic comparison of points per game. The person that does that will run also run comparisons of shots taken vs. goals scored. I bet there are a lot of players out there who have a better statistic for that than even Ovechkin does, but doesn't score anywhere near the goals.

I also think a lot of people have their favorites based purely on emotion. This entire thread has those who hate gretzky for whining, but Mario whined just as much. People who don't like Mario because they hate the Pens and love the Oilers.

And those who think of the golden years of Hockey and think those oldies and goldies like Orr, Henri Richard, Dryden, etc. are on a pedestal that nobody can ever come close to.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by VodkaFish

I don't know about that. I've heard many say Bobby Orr was the greatest player of all-time and there's a serious argument to be made. If we're measuring "talent", I probably would agree and put both Orr and Mario Lemieux ahead of Wayne Gretzky. This, of course, is one of the most common and beloved of all hockey arguments

The reason I put Bobby Orr first in my choice as the greatest player that ever played the game was his ability to control the tempo of a game , by that I mean if he wanted the game to go fast he made it fast , when he wanted to slow down the speed of the game he slowed it down ..

Now I have seen some great players over the years but never did I see a player control the tempo of a game whenever he pleased , only ORR could do that , Grtez/Mario were great in their own way but they could never do what Bobby Orr did , he changed the way the game was played by defenseman ..

[Boogeyman2383]

Originally Posted by fansince65

The reason I put Bobby Orr first in my choice as the greatest player that ever played the game was his ability to control the tempo of a game , by that I mean if he wanted the game to go fast he made it fast , when he wanted to slow down the speed of the game he slowed it down ..

Now I have seen some great players over the years but never did I see a player control the tempo of a game whenever he pleased , only ORR could do that , Grtez/Mario were great in their own way but they could never do what Bobby Orr did , he changed the way the game was played by defenseman ..

It's hard to decide who's the best, considering most played in different decades

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Boogeyman2383

It's hard to decide who's the best, considering most played in different decades

That statement I can agree with ..

Detroit Old timers will say Gordie Howe is the greatest , or a Montreal fan will say Maurice Richard was, a Chicago fan will tell you Bobby Hull or Stan Makita was , Toronto fans will lean to the Big "M" or Davey Keon , every team has fans that will think of a player that stood out for all time and will never be forgotten .

The players that stand out all over the world and become house-hold names in every country are the rare breed , they exemplify excellence in the game like only a few have achieved , the Howe's/Richards/Hulls/Horton's/Orr's/Espositos/Gretzky's/Lemieux type player are now being replaced by the Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin/Nash/Perry who in turn are being replaced by the Kane/Towe/Stamkos/Doughty/Tavares stars of tomorrow ..

Lets just hope this trend continues and we all get to compare the stars of this great game for a long time to come ....

[flex_buff_chest]

A neat stat.

Between 1980-81 and 2000-01

Only Three players won the art ross:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Jagr.