Lemieux vs. The Great One

[pens33]

Originally Posted by Word

The difference, as mentioned, is while 1 whined due to his role as a captain (and was successful at it), the other whined about opposing teams not letting him score at will.

So your whole point is that Gretzky's whining was much more noble than Lemieux's?

[Killah_punk]

To say Lemieux was not even comparable to Gretzky is just ignorant, Scotty Bowman one of the greatest if not the greatest coach of all time said Mario is the most skilled player hes ever seen in all his years of hockey so that is saying something.

[Word]

Originally Posted by pens33

So your whole point is that Gretzky's whining was much more noble than Lemieux's?

In a way, yes.

One was doing his job. And it worked. He did it for the team.

The other did it for himself. Selfish. He never whined stating how hard it was for Jagr to score, or anyone else on the team. He never threatened to retire because the clutch and grab affected others...it was all about himself.

You might excuse that difference because of being a pens fan. I don't excuse it and I am a fan of the pens, plus a fan of both players.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by pens33

It's a debate because Mario was more talented, and his "prime" was full of injuries. If you want to look at the stats and conclude that Gretzky was the greatest then fine, but the first post of this thread asks "Do you feel if Lemuix remained healthy he could have atleast had a SHOT at some of Gretzky's untouchable records?"... The answer to that is yes.

clyde, try using the word "newb" a few more times. It makes you look awesome.

newb.


gretzky pts per game 1.93

mario's pts per game 1.88

orr's pts per game 1.83

so your answer is NO......newb.

Points per game...it takes away all the what if's....this is what mario did per game....any way you slice it the answer is no.

newb.

[mattyp]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

To say Lemieux was not even comparable to Gretzky is just ignorant, Scotty Bowman one of the greatest if not the greatest coach of all time said Mario is the most skilled player hes ever seen in all his years of hockey so that is saying something.

1 person's opinion isn't a fact, it is an opinion. Don Cherry a Jack Adams winner said that Bobby Orr is the best player to ever play the game, so does that mean it's true? no it mean HE thinks he is. I don't care how many games Bowman coached, doesn't make his opinion right. We should end this discussion with a Poll and then we'll see who the HF board thinks is the better player.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

To say Lemieux was not even comparable to Gretzky is just ignorant, Scotty Bowman one of the greatest if not the greatest coach of all time said Mario is the most skilled player hes ever seen in all his years of hockey so that is saying something.

scotty bowman also used to make line changes using a duck call.....the guys a great coach but he about 11 cookies shy of a dozen

heres a few more scotty qoutes...

"I love Barry Manilow .”

“When I was in a record store with Sean Avery helping him look for CDs, I pulled out 'Tapestry.' He was like, who is Carole King ? Can you imagine?”

“'Mandy' ... that's my favorite song of all time. Man, oh, man.”

“I've KO'd a lot of guys verbally. I've got one of the most vicious knockout punches with the tongue of anyone on earth.”

“The better the coaching has become, the worse the game has become.”

“I knew your father before you did, and I don't think he'd be too proud of what you're doing right now.”

“I like Montreal but a guy gets to a point where he can't work anymore for someone he feels is less competent than him.”

and my personal favorite..
“Hockey is its own game. It's completely different than all other games, although it's getting way too close to soccer.”

[Killah_punk]

Originally Posted by clydefrog

scotty bowman also used to make line changes using a duck call.....the guys a great coach but he about 11 cookies shy of a dozen

Hey whatever he did it worked hence all the cups he won.

[Word]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

Hey whatever he did it worked hence all the cups he won.

So, you are saying he is a really good coach?

Cause if so, give him credit for cups and blame for the effect of those cups to the game.

“The better the coaching has become, the worse the game has become.”

[pens33]

Look, the Lemieux vs. Gretzky argument has always been an interesting one, but the people who list Gretzky's stats and cite 0.05 point-per-game differences and conclude that "there's no debate" just don't get it.

We're comparing apples with oranges because their careers were too different to ever find out. I watched Lemieux for years and I honestly believe there never was, and never will be, another person that would be able do the things he did on the ice.

[pens33]

And for anyone who wants to brush off his injuries like "injuries are part of the game, blah, blah", think about this....

In 88-89, Lemieux scored 199 pts and won the scoring title over Gretzky. He played 76 games that year, and it's pretty safe to say he came into his prime that year. Since that year, this is what the prime of his career looked like:

89-90 - 59 Games Played
90-91 - 26 GP
91-92 - 64 GP *
92-93 - 60 GP *
93-94 - 22 GP
95-96 - 70 GP *
96-97 - 76 GP *

* won scoring title

[BStreetBullies]

I think if Lindros remained healthy he would have smoked Gretzky's records easily.

Now who thinks that sounds ridiculous? Any Pen's fans?

Injuries or not, Mario could only ddo what his body allowed him to do, same with Gretzky, and his body allowed him to be head and shoulders above everybody in the points department.

[Tucker_316]

Originally Posted by clydefrog

newb.


gretzky pts per game 1.93

mario's pts per game 1.88

orr's pts per game 1.83

so your answer is NO......newb.

Points per game...it takes away all the what if's....this is what mario did per game....any way you slice it the answer is no.

newb.

Mario is so much more impressive. Look at those ppg...Mario for his first 6 seasons had no support or help at all really. The Pens were god awful. In fact, Mario allowed total chumps to record 100 point seasons. Which also proves how much easier it was to score in the 80's..where Wayne dominated. Add to the fact Wayne had so much talent around him that could also score 100 plus points a season, at that time, even without him. When you play with Kurri, Messier, Anderson, Coffey among others for that long, and take the skill Wayne had already, with the style of play in the 80's...of course he was gonna record all those points. I believe had Mario played on the same roster, Mario would have recorded better totals.
Mario finally gets his support in the early 90s, but after about 3 seasons plus one major injury and his bout with cancer, the league got so much more difficult to produce points in. It was a miracle practically that guys like Mario and Jagr could come near or top 150 points.

Mario was the man.

[Tucker_316]

Originally Posted by clydefrog

Even if you took away all Wayne Gretzky's goals and just went by assists he is still the all time points leader...

and the 'what if's" about injuries dont count...

Bobby Orr effecivly was done at 28...if he had stayed healthy he would have most likely been the ALL_TIME points leader....

Gretzky had 1963 assists

mario had 1723 pts total

case closed....

Also, on the subject of assists..tbh the only assist that should count as a point is the primary assist. Otherwise why not just count every player who set up the goal?

For example, why settle on simply 2 assists? Say one player has the puck, passes it to his teammate, who passes it to the other forward, then to another..and the last guy pots the puck in the net. All those guys should have gotten credit for a point. It should be assists to every player since the last guy of the opposing team had the puck.

If not, then just give one assist, not two. Who knows how many secondary assists a player recorded. That point stat always got to me.

[Isles4life]

Originally Posted by Word

In a way, yes.

One was doing his job. And it worked. He did it for the team.

The other did it for himself. Selfish. He never whined stating how hard it was for Jagr to score, or anyone else on the team. He never threatened to retire because the clutch and grab affected others...it was all about himself.

You might excuse that difference because of being a pens fan. I don't excuse it and I am a fan of the pens, plus a fan of both players.

I just don't buy the "he did it for the team" excuse to justify Gretzky's whining. They both were no strangers to complaining, I think Gretzky did it more often, even if you feel his motives were better. Hell, Gretzky still whines all the time behind the Coyotes bench. But it's really not relevant to the debate at hand anyway in my opinion.

On pure talent, I think Lemieux was the better player, but that's my personal opinion and I'll admit I did see a lot more of him in his prime than I did of Gretzky. The fact that Lemieux was able to physically battle out on the ice elevates him in my eyes, while Gretzky was usually able to work his magic without anyone really laying a finger on him. Is that his fault? No, but it did make life a little bit easier for him on the ice.

Do I think a healthy Lemieux could have produced at the same level as Gretzky? On total points, I'd probably say no because of Gretzky's domination in assists, but I do think Mario was definitely the better goal scorer, and if he hadn't had all of the injury and illness problems probably would have had a very good shot at that career record.

[Word]

Originally Posted by Isles4life

I just don't buy the "he did it for the team" excuse to justify Gretzky's whining. They both were no strangers to complaining, I think Gretzky did it more often, even if you feel his motives were better. Hell, Gretzky still whines all the time behind the Coyotes bench. But it's really not relevant to the debate at hand anyway in my opinion.

Yes, he does it as a coach. Show me a coach that DOESN'T whine. Babcock did it before the series with the ducks even got started.

It is his role as a coach. Just the same as it is the role of the captain on the ice.

So it comes down to how many times did Gretzky whine on, or off the ice, about something to do with him and not being able to skate around without any attention at all?

Usually, anyone who tried to follow him was embarassed by Gretz.