What was the “cryptonite” to your favorites?

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

It is always a pleasure to read a poster that looks past personal feelings to see that the SUN is YELLOW, the SKY is BLUE and BIAS has NO COLOR!

To steal a line from the "Godfather" movie, this is BUSINESS and many of our posters are taking it way to PERSONAL.

For the record, I did not like Behn Wilson. Why?
Because he was a bully, he was enigmatic and very self centered. Not what I'd want my team enforcer to be.

That being said, IMO, he was the best fighter in hockey. Why?
He was consistantly in every fight he ever fought right to the end, fought in multiple eras and was NEVER DOMINATED by anyone in any of his fights.

Name me another fighter who can say that! That includes EVERYONE of our all-time favorites. All of your and my childhood heroes at one time or another lost badly or some cases, multiple times.

Coming back to avenge a bad loss does not erase the loss itself, IMO.

Behn Wilson never had to do that because he never lost badly!

Was Behn Wilson a perfect fighter? NO

There is no such thing as a perfect fighter or for that matter a perfect human being.

EVERYONE has flaws, yes that includes Bob Probert, Dave Brown, Clark Gillies, Nick Fotiu, Stan Jonathan, Marty McSorley etc.

That is why I was looking forward to following this thread. I wanted to read honest opinions and assessments of all of our favorites. So thank you Battleship for your INTERVENTION!

Pretty low to throw random pot shots like that was the first post in the thread void of bias. I certainly have no bias towards Wilson and neither does Boobs. He may have some built up animosity towards Fotiu due to some over hyping but in the end I certainly understand that.

Your first line was cute but bias often has a color attached to it and the sun is not yellow. That is what someone would think if they only see the world through their own eyes though.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

Coming back to avenge a bad loss does not erase the loss itself, IMO.

Yes, but doing nothing about it is even worse.

[spiderarms]

Originally Posted by pesadillamal

Pretty low to throw random pot shots like that was the first post in the thread void of bias. I certainly have no bias towards Wilson and neither does Boobs. He may have some built up animosity towards Fotiu due to some over hyping but in the end I certainly understand that.

Your first line was cute but bias often has a color attached to it and the sun is not yellow. That is what someone would think if they only see the world through their own eyes though.

Big Behn seems to be a lightning rod of hostility for alot of our posters but we can't deny his superior fighting skills.

No, Battleship's was not the only post that was void of bias in the thread but it was eye catching to me because of his accuracy, attention to detail and I couldn't agree with him more on some of his points.

With regards to BOOBS, he was defending Big Behn so I don't know why your including him in your comments to me.

[spiderarms]

Originally Posted by srehm1

Yes, but doing nothing about it is even worse.

With regards to Behn Wilson, IMO, he never had a bad loss or one that he needed to prove something with a rematch. All of his loses were close fights.

Many of our favorites can not make that claim and needed to avenge some of their fights. That is the difference for me in this conversation. So I guess we disagree.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

With regards to Behn Wilson, IMO, he never had a bad loss or one that he needed to prove something with a rematch. All of his loses were close fights.

Many of our favorites can not make that claim and needed to avenge some of their fights. That is the difference for me in this conversation. So I guess we disagree.

I always thought it odd that he didn't seek a rematch against both fotiu and wensink. Say what you will about whether they were bad losses or not. He lost. Those two fights may be the worst losses of his career-although they were good fights and fairly close-certainly not draws by compubox numbers (that was for you BS25!). Fotiu being a ranger and their rivalry and the bruins being the other toughest team on the block certainly would have lent some creedence to a rematch. Plus the fact that as bigjack and others mention there is fotiu getting in wilson's face and no fight or response from wilson.

It takes a lot of balls to come back and avenge a loss. to me the ability to avenge a loss or big loss is one of the things that makes a true champion. Wilson never avenged ANY of his losses no matter how big or small they were. Never went after bert wilson again, never went after fotiu, wensink mcclelland snepsts etc. maybe he thought they were capable of beating him again and that's why he didn't avenge them. Maybe he was one of those guys who would let a close loss go in order to keep from losing even bigger in a rematch. Who knows? but to simply walk away from those losses without a hint of avenging them is one of the differences between him and someone like probert or Brown in my eyes.

A few of the greats from wilson's era also only had a few losses or a handful. Jonathan only lost a few, fotiu, wensink, etc. these guys don't get near the mention as #1 all-time. i think had these guys played in the probert/brown era-they would have lost plenty, just like probert, mcsorley, domi grimson etc. this speaks to how good an era is. saying wilson only had a few losses and no one else can claim that is saying more about how much weaker wilson's era was compared to the probert/brown era.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by srehm1

I always thought it odd that he didn't seek a rematch against both fotiu and wensink. Say what you will about whether they were bad losses or not. He lost. Those two fights may be the worst losses of his career-although they were good fights and fairly close-certainly not draws by compubox numbers (that was for you BS25!). Fotiu being a ranger and their rivalry and the bruins being the other toughest team on the block certainly would have lent some creedence to a rematch. Plus the fact that as bigjack and others mention there is fotiu getting in wilson's face and no fight or response from wilson.

It takes a lot of balls to come back and avenge a loss. to me the ability to avenge a loss or big loss is one of the things that makes a true champion. Wilson never avenged ANY of his losses no matter how big or small they were. Never went after bert wilson again, never went after fotiu, wensink mcclelland snepsts etc. maybe he thought they were capable of beating him again and that's why he didn't avenge them. Maybe he was one of those guys who would let a close loss go in order to keep from losing even bigger in a rematch. Who knows? but to simply walk away from those losses without a hint of avenging them is one of the differences between him and someone like probert or Brown in my eyes.

A few of the greats from wilson's era also only had a few losses or a handful. Jonathan only lost a few, fotiu, wensink, etc. these guys don't get near the mention as #1 all-time. i think had these guys played in the probert/brown era-they would have lost plenty, just like probert, mcsorley, domi grimson etc. this speaks to how good an era is. saying wilson only had a few losses and no one else can claim that is saying more about how much weaker wilson's era was compared to the probert/brown era.

he You know I might be out of charachter here but, maybe, just maybe Wilson didn't give a hoot, it is possible. Everybody is wired up differnently. Wilson, Wensink, Fotiu in the peak of Probert's era I would agree would have incurred more losses for sure. I do think that with respect to Fotiu if he prevails in choosing the style, namely, his boxing show, I think he does pretty good against anyone - bring it inside and he is going to suffer in the loss column

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

he You know I might be out of charachter here but, maybe, just maybe Wilson didn't give a hoot, it is possible. Everybody is wired up differnently. Wilson, Wensink, Fotiu in the peak of Probert's era I would agree would have incurred more losses for sure. I do think that with respect to Fotiu if he prevails in choosing the style, namely, his boxing show, I think he does pretty good against anyone - bring it inside and he is going to suffer in the loss column

I can agree with your first point. he may have not cared in the slightest. He may have been wired that way like you mentioned. he also may have been wired to avoid fighting guys who gave him trouble because he didn't want to lose again or even worse.

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

he You know I might be out of charachter here but, maybe, just maybe Wilson didn't give a hoot, it is possible. Everybody is wired up differnently. Wilson, Wensink, Fotiu in the peak of Probert's era I would agree would have incurred more losses for sure. I do think that with respect to Fotiu if he prevails in choosing the style, namely, his boxing show, I think he does pretty good against anyone - bring it inside and he is going to suffer in the loss column

srehm, why should BW avenge draws But seriously BBBB, BW WAS wired differently...his teammates even mention it. By the time of his CHI days he seemed a loner even as a veteran. Talking to him you could tell he was very different than any other player I'd met... extremely intelligent, but very guarded. You could sense his elitism, an aloofness that he carried on the ice...he was no well liked by the Hawk teammates (unlike Probie who the Wings players loved) . Even while on VCR , talking to Cochrane about BW he doesn't remember him with fondness as much as his great respect of him as a fighter...he thought he was the toughest guy he'd ever seen ..at that point in his career. Fraser , who found out the hard way that BW was as tough as they come seemed to imply that BW was dangerously unpredictable but traveled to the beat of a different drum.

Watching his whole career he was an enigma, at times half asleep ..and then snap !! He spears you ..the Fotiu incident didn't surprise me in the least, I 'd seen that with Behn many times against lesser HW than NF. He never thought of himself as a tough guy that needs to prove anything, I'll tell you one thing ..had NF suckered him the way Baxter did ..there would 've been another part 2 , guaranteed. I still have a ton of BW just playing on tape (gms or just his shifts courtesy of my trader in CHI)... he was almost never overly aggressive..not like Playfair - who always played like he woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Not a huge body checker, that took too much effort..he seemed like he didn't want to look bad..he rarely ever fell..never had snow on his pants.

But had he played later , he'd certainly would've had more losses ..just not the devastating kind that felled Probert ( leaving that chin open was Probie Achilles heel) . BW had a more of a boxing background perhaps ..keeping that chin tucked in. Near impossible to KO. BW was a master at "ring generalship" rarely looking like he was losing..his strength , balance, mean streak, power, technique..he refused to be dominated.

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

Big Behn seems to be a lightning rod of hostility for alot of our posters but we can't deny his superior fighting skills.

No, Battleship's was not the only post that was void of bias in the thread but it was eye catching to me because of his accuracy, attention to detail and I couldn't agree with him more on some of his points.

With regards to BOOBS, he was defending Big Behn so I don't know why your including him in your comments to me.

I certainly won't deny Behn's fighting ability. In trying to do research to rank these guys I find so many disappointing fights when two fighters go at it when they are both on top of their game, or both in the top 5-7 the year they fought. It certainly was not that way with Behn. Every fight he went at it and had some great wars. It's hard to find a lot of statement fights for some of these guys but though Wilson may not have won them all, he made the statement that he was going to go full tilt no matter the competition every time he fought. Probert - Brown was another great one as detailed very well by srehm in a thread he made.

Couldn't agree more about BS25's post and that is something we have all come to expect. It just seemed like you were claiming there was a lot of bias going on before that and I failed to see that. I included Boobs because when you use a word like "intervention" it seemed to imply what I felt you were saying. I simply thought that saying Wilson dominated legends was doing a favor to Wilson, and he doesn't really need any favors. Neither of us were bashing Wilson so no intervention was needed as it was a done deal.

And think about this Spider. Was it really a bad move on my part to steer the conversation away from a certain player? In the end we get to see how some great posters (Boobs, BS25) scored some of Wilson's closest battles which was a huge bonus.

[pesadillamal]

If Wilson fought the amount of times Probert did I would have to imagine there would be a few bad losses. It's inevitable. How could you be at the top of your game that many times with the obvious extra aches and pains that come from fighting that much? And we can't forget the mental aspect either. I could give Wilson the benefit of the doubt against many fighters with more fights but not Probert. It's blasphemy to put anybody higher than him.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by battleship25

srehm, why should BW avenge draws But seriously BBBB, BW WAS wired differently...his teammates even mention it. By the time of his CHI days he seemed a loner even as a veteran. Talking to him you could tell he was very different than any other player I'd met... extremely intelligent, but very guarded. You could sense his elitism, an aloofness that he carried on the ice...he was no well liked by the Hawk teammates (unlike Probie who the Wings players loved) . Even while on VCR , talking to Cochrane about BW he doesn't remember him with fondness as much as his great respect of him as a fighter...he thought he was the toughest guy he'd ever seen ..at that point in his career. Fraser , who found out the hard way that BW was as tough as they come seemed to imply that BW was dangerously unpredictable but traveled to the beat of a different drum.

Watching his whole career he was an enigma, at times half asleep ..and then snap !! He spears you ..the Fotiu incident didn't surprise me in the least, I 'd seen that with Behn many times against lesser HW than NF. He never thought of himself as a tough guy that needs to prove anything, I'll tell you one thing ..had NF suckered him the way Baxter did ..there would 've been another part 2 , guaranteed. I still have a ton of BW just playing on tape (gms or just his shifts courtesy of my trader in CHI)... he was almost never overly aggressive..not like Playfair - who always played like he woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Not a huge body checker, that took too much effort..he seemed like he didn't want to look bad..he rarely ever fell..never had snow on his pants.

But had he played later , he'd certainly would've had more losses ..just not the devastating kind that felled Probert ( leaving that chin open was Probie Achilles heel) . BW had a more of a boxing background perhaps ..keeping that chin tucked in. Near impossible to KO. BW was a master at "ring generalship" rarely looking like he was losing..his strength , balance, mean streak, power, technique..he refused to be dominated.

The more I find out about Wilson the more I like him. Deep down he could have been quite sensitive, henceforth his purported aloofness. This is a very rare admixture of charachter traits, I guess the closest next guy with any semblence of being someone tough and artsy-fartsy would be Stu Grimson.

Perhaps what was said is correct re: avenging his losses: Maybe he did not want to tarnish his record, look bad in fron of his teamates, or he really never gave it a second thought - Having said that, seeing Fotiu up in his grill those many times after their fight does give me pause, because Wilson certainly went after many many others for much less.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

I think he had all the ingredients to be an excellent hockey brawler type - ala Probie, Wilson, Berube

Hey BBBB as you know, you grow up on Staten Island and you learn to street fight and be a brawler!
My cousin was Irish and had tons of fights with the Italians! It was part of growing up on Staten Island!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

Please direct all questions outside the purview of this thread and relating to Fotiu and the Flyers to Shultzie and BigJack-

Thx

I would ask where were Hoyda, Kelly, Bridgman, Dupont with Nick. He sure hit these guys with enough hard body checks and where were they?
Hoyda became brave with 4 guys in front of him and there is a famous picture of Bridgman as a Flame backing away as Fotiu went after him! Ole Mel was not looking to engage!
I remember on the FC site Bridgman spoke about his great respect for Fotiu!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by I like Boobs

You missed the Jonathan fight? Wilson lands better.

Behn Wilson vs Stan Jonathan Mar 23, 1980 - YouTube

Sure he lost to Wensink. Wilson and Probert had one altercation and that wasn't long before he retired due to injury. He definitely beat Beck who held on, Gillies, and engaged McSorely unlike another guy. He beat Clark although Clark landed well himself. Beat Paterson who made that same guy look pretty bad. Hammered Nilan a couple times. Danny Gare a couple times, an underrated Curt Fraser.

He didn't beat Beck at all! Beck snapped his head back with a big short left hand at the end of the fight and Wilson didn't land on Bubba!

Watch this, Wilson never landed a right and Beck landed a nice right at the 1:28 mark and then at the 1:32 mark snaps Wilson's head back with a powerful short great left punch!
Slow it down and watch Wilson's head get blasted!

barry beck vs behn wilson - YouTube

[pesadillamal]

I may need another diversion here shortly.

Tough to see much from that video but Wilson did land some rights. Beck also landed a couple including a nice left that ended the fight. Only problem is that it ended the fight because Beck channeled Andre the Giant with that bear hug. I was waiting for the linesman to start picking Wilson's arm up three times to see if he was still conscious or if he could count him out. I think on the third lift Wilson would have came alive and answered with a DDT.