A weekly exercise in ranking fighters... This week-Stan Jonathan

[GIANTSFAN]

Not sure where I'd rank Jonathan. Over the years, he's been anywhere from top 15 to not in my top 20. The thing that hurts many of the 70s guys is that I don't think most of the guys they fought would be in my top 20. I feel Wilson, Playfair & not many others would be able to hold their own vs guys of the mid to late 90s.
Miller had decent power, he was no Kocur, but he dropped Coxe & landed some good shots on a prime Probert.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by GIANTSFAN

Miller had decent power, he was no Kocur, but he dropped Coxe & landed some good shots on a prime Probert.

The coxe tko was nice. I also recall him dropping don jackson. Gord donnelly once mentioned that miller hit him the hardest he had ever been hit in one of their fights. I do have to disagree with the probert fight. miller barely hit probert in that fight, grazing type shots where he could barely reach him. annoying type punches more than anything. i remember at the end of the fight probert landed a short right that had jay taking inventory of his teeth when he was going to the box.

I do put miller in the pillow puncher class but pillow punchers aren't pillow punchers all the time. john kordic and marty mcsorley are often referred to as pillow punchers but they have dropped a few guys in their careers. langdon would be a good call for a pillow puncher, but he also decked Gino odjick.

[BENNETTWOLF]

For whatever it's worth, miller also made short work of Greg Adams, possible TKO. I'd have to see it again.

I was always interested about how good cashman was viewed in his prime because (i think) Dave Schultz wrote he basically took the title from him. I've heard anything from top 10 or above in the late 60's-very early 70's when Orland Kurtenbach may have been #1. Different posters have said different things but i'm sure he was among the echelon in his day.

Funny thing is; wasn't Ted Green boston's ranking heavy then?

[Johnny Pie]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

For whatever it's worth, miller also made short work of Greg Adams, possible TKO. I'd have to see it again.

I was always interested about how good cashman was viewed in his prime because (i think) Dave Schultz wrote he basically took the title from him. I've heard anything from top 10 or above in the late 60's-very early 70's when Orland Kurtenbach may have been #1. Different posters have said different things but i'm sure he was among the echelon in his day.

Funny thing is; wasn't Ted Green boston's ranking heavy then?

Green was the ranking heavy a little earlier. mid 60's even before. I remember because when I first started in 67 season Green already was the enforcer. A lot of stories about Terrible Ted were already ledgendary. As far as Cash in the early 70's he was considered right at the top. Kurtenbach and Ferguson were not the same as in the 60's. By the time Schultz fought him Cash had the rep but was really not at his best. 70 to 72 was his best. He held wins over Harris ,Fleming,Picard, draw with Kurt among some good wins vs Ricky Ley, Magnuson and others. He was said to be the best fighter on the meanest team so his reputation grew quickly.

[Howatt8]

Originally Posted by Johnny Pie

Green was the ranking heavy a little earlier. mid 60's even before. I remember because when I first started in 67 season Green already was the enforcer. A lot of stories about Terrible Ted were already ledgendary. As far as Cash in the early 70's he was considered right at the top. Kurtenbach and Ferguson were not the same as in the 60's. By the time Schultz fought him Cash had the rep but was really not at his best. 70 to 72 was his best. He held wins over Harris ,Fleming,Picard, draw with Kurt among some good wins vs Ricky Ley, Magnuson and others. He was said to be the best fighter on the meanest team so his reputation grew quickly.

Agree 100%.

Those late 60's/early 70's Bruins are a great topic. The Big Bad Bruins, IMO anyway, were really the precursor to the Bullies. They introduced the pack mentality and the Flyers just took it to the next level.

They had that gang mentality with guys like McKenzie, Cashman, Sanderson, Doak, and Smith leading the pack. As bad as they were though, there are no Barry Cummins and Mike Christie gang-beatings on the Bruins resume.

I always saw Cashman as the baddest of the Big Bad Bruins of the late 60's/early 70's. Cashman was all sticks and elbows. But he was also one of the better fighters of his era, which I would say were the late 60/early 70's. Once the post-Schultz era came along, Cashman, while still a formidable and dangerous fighter, was just as likely to ram his stick down your throat as he was to drop the gloves.

I remember him getting into a stick fight with Dennis Hextall during a game of the week. Dennis was no angel either and both guys starting whacking each other until finally Cashman took a two-handed baseball bat type swing at Hextall's head. Fortunately it missed or who knows what might have happened.

His beating up on Reggie Fleming touched off that Buffalo/Boston brawl. Reggie was an old timer by that time and Cashman tattooed him pretty good.

Cashman attacked the corners like a madman. He was all elbows and sticks in the corners and if you went in there with him, you took your life in your hands, lol. He was vicious in the corners.

Lot of Bruins fans would probably say that he was just as important to them winning those 2 cups as anyone, anyone that played a forward position anyway, lol. His grunt work in those corners was what made it possible for Esposito to get all those goals.

Not that Espo didn't earn them also, Espo was a beast in front of the net. As big a ***** as Esposito was, he'd plant his big ass in front of that net, he'd take a f****** beating while he stood there, and you just couldn't move the big bastard. Toughness can be measured in different ways, and in his own way, Esposito showed his.

As for Kurtenbach, he was a shell of his former self by the time the early 70's rolled around. He took a really bad one-punch KO loss to Dave Lewis around 71 or 72.

[Johnny Pie]

Howatt8 once again I find myself agreeing with your post. Only time I really remember Bruins ganging up on one player was Brian Conacher. After he sticked Orr Pie chased him down and Orr pummeled him. That was one of the first fights I remember reading about. I did a picture history of the Big Bad Bruins not to long ago in Remember When. you might get a kick out of some of the fights from back then. You pretty well summed up Cash. Also I remember Lewis KD of Kurt. Would have never happened earlier in his career.



P.S. Howatt if you want to see those Cashman - Bruin pics they were posted in oct- nov
a little further back than I thought.

[nighthawk]

I've always had a fondness for the smaller fighters like Jonathan, Howatt, McPhee, Gare ect. and admired their fearlessness when taking on the big boys and while I like Jonathan it's hard for me to rank him too high. One reason being is that most of his fights with quality opposition(Wilson, Schultz, Bridgman, Howatt, Maxwell ect.) ended in draws. The other is his somewhat sparse fight card that's missing names like Nystrom, Maloney, Holmgren, Plett, Fotiu, Hoyda, McIlhargey, Kelly, Semenko ect.

I do realize that he had somewhat of a short career and was probably avoided by some due to the no win situation against a smaller fighter. Though Howatt had no problem finding quality opposition but then again Howatt wasn't as dangerous a fighter as Jonathan. But if the fear factor shouldn't be used in ranking a fighter like say Fotiu the same should go for Jonathan.

Also felt that Jonathan got a little too much mileage out of the Bouchard fight. Like I've said a number of times Bouchard seemed to have a reputation that wasn't deserved. Yes he was a tough, rugged defenseman who beat Cashman and Schultz once but had something like 16 career fights against mostly no names and don't feel that two fights puts you in the league of elite heavyweights. I also wonder if such a big deal would be made if Jonathan had beaten someone like Lee Fogolin? Of course Don Cherry beating the drum for him all these years has helped his cause.

As far as the Jonathan - Domi comparison goes while there are some similarities between the two I've always felt that Domi was an upgraded version of Jonathan. Bigger, stronger, harder to beat and overall a better fighter IMO. Always found it interesting how Domi has mentioned that Tiger Williams was his idol growing up despite having a somewhat similar style to Jonathan.

Anyway would probably rank Stan somewhere around 26-30

[Johnny Pie]

Hey Hawk you believe we have Stan rated the same !! One thing don't go making fun of Lee Fogolin . Here he is not looking to shabby against you know who














look at the ranger fan in the backround. looks like she's a little worried about Nick !!!!

[nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Johnny Pie

Hey Hawk you believe we have Stan rated the same !! One thing don't go making fun of Lee Fogolin . Here he is not looking to shabby against you know who

look at the ranger fan in the backround. looks like she's a little worried about Nick !!!!

Actually Johnny I wasn't making fun of Fogolin at all. Despite not having a ton of fights he could handle himself pretty well. The point I was making is that Lee like Bouchard was a rugged defenseman but was somewhat of an umknown commodity. Bouchard on the other hand had a reputation of a guy you didn't want to mess with so don't think think such a big deal would have been made if Jonathan had beaten Fogolin.

I have a brief clip of Fogolin going toe to toe with Jack Carlson.

BTW who's that fella that Fogolin is fighting in the photo????????????

[Johnny Pie]

once again Hawk you make a valid point. Fogolin was strong as a bull and I have him winning some surprising bouts. Bouchard surely had a major rep and like you said he really didn't do a lot to deserve it. He had a tremendous toe to toe bout with Mike Bloom of the Caps that I remember. My friend has some pics of the bout in some Montreal book. But Stan's victory over Bouchard is held in very high regard.

By the way maybe BJ could help name the fighter in the picture fighting Lee !!!!!!!!!

[Johnny Pie]

Hawk here is Bouchard beating another player Ted Irvine who was thought to be tough at the time. Irvine was considered one of the Ranger fighters back then and Bouchard obviously handled him.

[nighthawk]

[quote=Johnny Pie;2470778]Hawk here is Bouchard beating another player Ted Irvine who was thought to be tough at the time. Irvine was considered one of the Ranger fighters back then and Bouchard obviously handled him.

While I liked Ted and he was a willing fighter I don't remember him winning too many against quality opponents. Robinson and Gillies destroyed him even Claude Larose beat him. Though he did manage a draw against Magnuson.

[edwardraffoni]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

Yeah, the all time best bruin fighter (of the era we generally cover here) is an interesting debate. Maybe both Terry O and cashman suffer a bit by peaking in the early to mid 70's. I always like jonathan for the exceedingly few losses and in holding his own with Behn Wilson, he indicated just how capable he was.

Wensink's bruin footage is spottier, highlighted by beating a (possibly) fading "battleship" kelly and drawing with underrated toughnut Dave Hoyda who lost very few known fights.

O'reilly had such an outstanding card and holds victories over a lot of the most feared, top guys of his era like schultz, gillies, maloney and others etc. I guess i've always been ultra impressed by jonathan's winning percentage and possibly by the fact i grew up watching the aging terry...........even my tapes cover from the islander series etc. Maybe i'm more influenced by seeing him lose more often on those first (beloved) tapes. The guy i saw at his best is more of from other sites.

Certainly one of the best triumvrates in their late 70's prime and a worthy debate.............mainly for bruin fans

Bennett, if you saw the incident with a prime Willi Plett, at the time a feared fighter around the league, with a mean streak a mile wide. Plett was just about to take Mike Milbury apart, when John Wensink stepped in and squared off with Plett. Wensink more than held his own that night against one of the best fughters in the league. We saw a washed-up willi play for the Bruins, but in his prime , Plett was a monster. Wensink's stock rose that night.

[blockerpunch]

Wensink's fight with Behn Wilson was a beauty too and more decisive than Stan's fight which was also great.

I think Wensink had an extra element of goon in him with the crazy look to go with it, Cherry viewed him as the main heavy (O'Reilly more valuable on the ice to Cherry, same probably for Jonathan although Wensink put up some good points at times). Wensink also replaced Battleship Kelly as Cherry's top fighter in Rochester so when Cherry got Wensink from the Blues up in the show he was comforted knowing he had a guy like John to handle that business for the team.

Wensink was the most unpredictable out of the three (O'Reilly, Wensink, Jonathan) and that probably made him the most dangerous in the eyes of many because he was willing to do go further in an attack. In terms of pure fighting they are all pretty close, I think you could make a case for any one of them. I prefer O'Reilly, but the other two are neck and neck.