A weekly exercise in ranking fighters... This week-Ken Baumgartner

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

I thought i'd chime in because i wondered if the "bomber" had ranked as high as #4.

Anyway beginning in 87-88 where he tied at #10, kenny placed in 6 of 7 seasons until 93-94 during one of the best eras for fighting ever. Besides not being ranked in 88-89, he placed at #4, #5, #6 (twice), #9 and #10.

That's in his favor.

I actually think Bomber should rank at #10 that year (87-88) but that's just my opinion. When I did the top-10 scores for every fighter in merlin's top-10/lineage thread, Bomber scored 32 points, good enough for 27th place out of 90+ fighters. Not too shabby.

[26Kocur]

Had a chance to meet the Bomber and he was a cool dude. Won a Memorial Cup with Prince Albert, and was considered one of the better defenceman on that team. That aside when I think of his career nothing really spectacular comes to mind. He showed up and did his job well. A very willing combatant but not someone who I remember as being one of the elite pugilist's in the late 80's early 90's. Kind of reminds me of Kelly Chase both had a mix of wins losses and draws. Good not great. I guess I rank him around 20-25 considering he had over 200 NHL fights and played quite a few years during a very tough era of the NHL.

On a side note whenever I hear Ken Baumgartner I always remember the clip I saw years ago on HNIC when Domi was a rookie with the Rangers and they were playing the Islanders. During warmups Domi put shredded paper under his helmet so it came out of the back so it looked like the Bombers long hair. They almost went at it during warmups. Domi did some funny things...

[mikebflorida]

Originally Posted by rtocchet

Agree with all minus Rudy Poeschek. I would like to see a weekly ranking on him. To me he was a tough as they come. Top 20 in my book. Doesn't quite get the recognition as some of the others.....but tough as nails with wins over some top heavies!

As for the bomber.......well him and Vukoda were the poor mans bruise brothers of the 90's. I like that he was willing to open up with anyone....however as mentioned before didn't do so well with the little guys. A marathon fighter who can switch hands was not up there with real heavyweights. I would compare him to Rick Rypien. He did have that great penalty box fight with Probie in the minors!

Oh.....and he loses points for that gay song he did "the bomber" back when he was on the Isles. Ugh!!!!! It was funny back then....but an utter embarassment looking back...hahaha!!!!!

I think Rudy was awesome, I just wouldn't know where to rank him. Were there only 19 or less guys better than Rudy? I dunno.

[mikebflorida]

Originally Posted by NameyMD

top 20 for sure, becuz:
- longevity in the elite, top 10-15 every season from rookie to retirement
- very few big/easy losses
- not exactly small, maybe a little on the lanky side but more often than not went with guys bigger + stronger than him
- very entertaining style (dunno what's this "poor's man brash" shyte mikeb is on about he is obviously a big old noob and I apologize on his behalf)
- consistent schooling of younger wannabe heavyweights
- rarely if ever resorted to cheap shots/jumping etc
- didn't outstay his time in the league but retired just as his stature as fighter was diminishing with the new generation coming up
- recorded a thrash metal tune for charity in the late 80's

In the dozen or so fights I watched yesterday, KB tied up and threw short lefts. Very much like Brashear, only not as ferocious or strong as Brash, hence the poor mans Brash comment. I didn't mean it as an insult at all, it's what came to mind. I think he was a very good fighter, very technically sound and tough. He gets pretty high marks from me for balance, speed, tying up, and taking a punch, lower marks for power and intimidation as he had a great rep coming out of the WHL but not as scary as a Twist, Grimson, or Probert from that era.

I am new to ranking these guys and am happy to learn but I've been following the sport and hockey fights since about 85 or so. I just might see certain things differently. Cheers!

[I like Boobs]

Not a valid comparison with Brashear. Two completely different animals. The Bomber was a fantastic fighter. I did a massive project on him a few years back and I was extremely impressed with his ability. Could switch hands, had decent power, a great fight card and had a mean streak when the time was right.

One of the things I enjoyed the most with the Bomber was that he had rivalries with everyone! Had great series with all timers like Domi, Grimson, Hunter, and a guy who always gave him problems in Jeff Odgers.

Bomber had surprising power as well that doesn't get mentioned much - has TKOs and KOs and bloodied guys like Janssens, Grimson, Houda, Kypreos, McCarty. He also took some bad beatings from guys like Dave Brown and the shocking KO from Brad May. Jeff Odgers beating him a lot was pretty surprising as well. Loved the fact that anytime there was a linebrawl he seemed to be on the ice!

I'd put him around 23-25 all time. I'll bump my old thread as well for those who haven't read it yet.

[brawl lover]

I'd love to see some top 25 lists from you guys.

[mikebflorida]

Originally Posted by brawl lover

I'd love to see some top 25 lists from you guys.

Me too! I'd love to know where some of these guys rank on your lists and how they compare to others.

I would really like to make a list but after the first 5 guys, it gets really tough for me to know where to rank a guy. I need a system, yeah, that's the ticket, a system to grade fighter's strengths and weaknesses and even that is a subjective deal.

Balance
Tying Up
Power
Speed
Fairness
Taking A Punch
Strength
Willingness
Switching Hands

That's 9 different things to look at when grading a player. Is there anything I'm missing?

This would be a pretty big project for me and I don't know if I have the time but I probably should make time instead of being out so much, I'm sure my wife and son would agree.

I'd be watching a LOT of videos but what's more fun than watching hockey fight videos? It beats almost anything on TV right now.

[brawl lover]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Me too! I'd love to know where some of these guys rank on your lists and how they compare to others.

I would really like to make a list but after the first 5 guys, it gets really tough for me to know where to rank a guy. I need a system, yeah, that's the ticket, a system to grade fighter's strengths and weaknesses and even that is a subjective deal.

Balance
Tying Up
Power
Speed
Fairness
Taking A Punch
Strength
Willingness
Switching Hands

That's 9 different things to look at when grading a player. Is there anything I'm missing?

This would be a pretty big project for me and I don't know if I have the time but I probably should make time instead of being out so much, I'm sure my wife and son would agree.

I'd be watching a LOT of videos but what's more fun than watching hockey fight videos? It beats almost anything on TV right now.

Everybody has their own criteria when ranking fighters. It just seems that any time some is ranked they are always in the top 25. There has be be 100... easy... in the top 25. It is so hard to put a top 25 list together. It is top 5 and then the rest. Sure it is easy to rank number 6 against number 30 but hard to rank 6 against say number 10.

[JAVALITE]

Originally Posted by brawl lover

Everybody has their own criteria when ranking fighters. It just seems that any time some is ranked they are always in the top 25. There has be be 100... easy... in the top 25. It is so hard to put a top 25 list together. It is top 5 and then the rest. Sure it is easy to rank number 6 against number 30 but hard to rank 6 against say number 10.

Agreed. I have a top 3 and #4 is so hard to decide. I think Baumgartner probably ranks anywhere from 50-100. No offense to anyone, but how can Kenny rank top 25 alltime. As far as alltime Leaf fighters go, Bomber most likely ranks in the top 10, not top 5, so I think a top 25 ranking is too high for him.

[BENNETTWOLF]

For anyone interested, i'd strongly reccomend checking out ILB's career retrospective thread on the bomber. Like all of his player bios, it's as good as anything here. It might sway some voters that discount kenny.

[blockerpunch]

Javalite I'm just curious who you rank higher than Baumgartner for Leafs fighters? They have had some great ones over the years for sure. Belak, Clark, Domi, Kordic, Orr I could see people ranking higher than Bomber but I would still think he's top five since Kordic's best years were in Montreal... Who else am I missing that a case can be made for? Maloney's best years from my understanding were in L.A., I'd take Baumgartner over Tiger Williams in the fight department...

[V12_Bi-Turbo]

Originally Posted by MattBurger

Had Marty McSorely and Tim Hunter's numbers his entire career. Used to struggle with guys like Jeff Odgers though. He had a weird career.

This sums it up pretty well..I was never sure what to think about the Bomber

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Me too! I'd love to know where some of these guys rank on your lists and how they compare to others.

I would really like to make a list but after the first 5 guys, it gets really tough for me to know where to rank a guy. I need a system, yeah, that's the ticket, a system to grade fighter's strengths and weaknesses and even that is a subjective deal.

Balance
Tying Up
Power
Speed
Fairness
Taking A Punch
Strength
Willingness
Switching Hands

That's 9 different things to look at when grading a player. Is there anything I'm missing?

This would be a pretty big project for me and I don't know if I have the time but I probably should make time instead of being out so much, I'm sure my wife and son would agree.

I'd be watching a LOT of videos but what's more fun than watching hockey fight videos? It beats almost anything on TV right now.

The things you listed are the physical aspects of a fighter. When you watch video of a certain fighter-those things jump out at you. watching the footage, you can easily figure out how good his balance is, does he have power? how well does he switch hands etc. Now saying that, for me at least, it's more than that when it comes to ranking a fighter all time. When we discuss Brown we mention all the one sided whoopins he laid on people and all the great fighters he beat. He very rarely switched hands and his stamina wasn't the stuff of legends. he had some great traits don't get me wrong-good power, reach and a killer mean streak but what really counts to me was what he accomplished as a fighter. Who did he beat? What did his card look like? did he win some impressive fights? was he considered on of the best-or the best-for any stretch of time? where did he rank per season? was he a top-10 fighter and where did he rate?

The purpose of these weekly ranking threads is to concentrate on one fighter and where he ranks all time instead of trying to come up with a top-25 or 30 lists all at once. When you have a thread and the subject is ken baumgartner, we can discuss all the little nuances that made him a great fighter and where he should rank. I even broke it down into 5 spot ranges to make it a little easier so we're not trying to come up with an exact single number for him.

I find it interesting and I was surprised to see a guy like semenko fall off the radar. I had 6 options to choose from and a few people had him outside of the top-30. hell we have one guy in here saying bomber is in the top-50-100 haha.

One thing I have to ask, mike b. what is "fairness"? Is that how fair they are starting a fight? Or how well they abide by the vaunted "code"?

[JAVALITE]

Originally Posted by blockerpunch

Javalite I'm just curious who you rank higher than Baumgartner for Leafs fighters? They have had some great ones over the years for sure. Belak, Clark, Domi, Kordic, Orr I could see people ranking higher than Bomber but I would still think he's top five since Kordic's best years were in Montreal... Who else am I missing that a case can be made for? Maloney's best years from my understanding were in L.A., I'd take Baumgartner over Tiger Williams in the fight department...

I put the 5 you mentioned ahead of Baumgartner. Domi,Clark ,Kordic, Orr and Belak. Kordic did not lose too many as a Leaf. Other names to consider are Jim Korn, McGill, Nylund, Gill, and Semenko, yes, an aging Semenko. If you want to go back to the '70's, we have to consider Maloney,Hutchison, Walker.

You mention that Kordic's and Maloney's best years were elsewhere, I think the same applies to Baumgartner. I think Kordic did quite well for himself in both Montreal and Toronto by the way.

The thing with Kenny's Leaf career is I remember the losses more than I do the wins. He lost to Odjick, McCarthy, Twist, and was KO'd by May. I'm hard pressed to come up with any impressive wins. He hung in there with Probert, bloodied Kypreos, and besides that, I'm drawing a blank. I think he did well in a preseason scrap with McCarty, and I think he had a decent showing vs Stu Grimson. I just don't remember him as a dominant Leaf enforcer.

I stand by my assessment that Baumgartner ranks between 50-100.

[srehm1]

A few Baumgartner fights:

vs. Hunter early in his career:

Ken Baumgartner vs Tim Hunter - YouTube

Slugging it out with JK:

Joey Kocur Vs Ken Baumgartner - YouTube

vs. the king:

Bob Probert Vs Ken Baumgartner - Better Version ...

vs. Gentleman Jim:

Jim McKenzie vs Ken Baumgartner - YouTube

The first time I saw this fight it was on tape and it was to the song "China Grove" by the Doobie Brothers. Listen to Fred cusick, "Lyndon Byers and Ken Hammond!"

Lyndon Byers Vs Ken Baumgartner - YouTube

vs. McSorley:

Hockey Fights - Marty McSorley Vs. Ken...