Old Farts Thread

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

They are all great teams but the Habs up to 1967 only had to win 2 rounds and play a possible 14 games to win the Cup whereas the Islanders had to win 4 rounds and play a possible 25 games!
I still think the Habs 1977 team that had 132 points out of a possible 160 was the best that I ever saw. That team scored 387 goals and allowed 171 goals and had 13 players score 38 or more points with 2 players over 55 goals, and 9 players over 50 points.
What did the Rangers have- 3 players over 50 points last year and none at 70 points or 25 goals? I need to VOMIT!
The 1982 Islander team was their best and had 118 points out of a possible 160 points and scored 385 goals and allowed 250 goals. They had 12 players score over 38 points and had one player over 55 goals with 7 players over 50 points.
The difference was the great Montreal defense led by the Big 3 and Ken Dryden who only allowed 171 goals in 80 games! That was lockdown defense and yet they also scored 387 goals!
Total dominance and balance and only 8 loses in 80 games!
Just for me, that is the best most dominate team that I ever saw and it had everything and while they had low penalty minute totals, they could not be intimidated!

Bj : I agree with you here , that 1977 Habs team was the best ever assembled .
60-8-12 win loss tie , 132 points , 216 more goals scored then allowed , 20 points ahead of the second place team over all the Flyer's , 49 points ahead of their second place division rival Los Angeles Kings .

I don't think their will ever be another team do that kind of domination for a season as long as any of us live ...

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by peacemaker

I'm going to say something which may not go over so big, and I don't mean to belittle what the Habs accomplished, but by virtue of simple math the Habs always had a 1 in 6 chance of winning a Cup for a good 60 yr period. Over 60 years just by applying simple math they should have won roughly 10 Stanley Cups.
They were also able to keep much of the french talent coming out of Quebec for themselves, whereas the other 5 teams had to compete for the talent from Ontario thru mostly Alberta (relatively few players were coming from BC for much of the pre-expansion era - I think).

The Habs accomplishments were impressive nonetheless, but in an effort to remain politically correct, people tend to 'forget' to mention what I wrote above.

What the Habs team did in the 70's was damn impressive. That team (or teams) was incredible. To lose so few games over a 3 yr period is mind boggling. I am more impressed by that clubs accomplishments in many respects than what they did for much of the pre-expansion era (although they had a tremendous club in the 50's as well).

I believe the Habs won 13 Stanley Cups between 1909 and 1966. Statistically speaking they should have won 9.5 Cups in that time (roughly as there weren't always exactly 6 teams that entire time).

peace,

You are not going to offend me with your opinion.

For years it seemed that Montreal and Toronto could win the cup at will for a period of time in the 50's, with Detroit in the mix also. The other three, Chicago, New York, and Boston, took turns being bad.

I agree with what you said about their 1 in 6 chance of winning. Think about this, the other teams combined had a 5 out of 6 chance of keeping them out of the playoffs.

Then, in the days of the O6, the top four teams qualified for the playoffs. All the other five teams had to do was win enough games to keep the Habs out. If that failed the other teams had a 75% percent chance of winning to Montreal's 25%.

I grew up hearing the same arguments about the Yankees, at just about the same time we are talking about with the Canadiens. That was back in the days of only eight teams in the American and National Leagues. What the consensus opinion seemed to be was that it was not the team or players as much as the system.

In both cases, stability and consistency seemed to go hand in hand. With each team, they had their pick of talent. They could plug players in almost at will and see them not only perform, but, in most cases excell. The bench players for each team were good enough to start for most teams.

peace, I am not discounting what you are saying. Using you math, 10 cups in 60 years would apply to the other 5 also, meaning that Montreal would have capped at that same 10 cups. From 1949 to 1969, they won 10 in 20 years. You have to apply the same logic evenly across the board to come to a mathematical conclusion using constants.

The BlackHawks were victims of the Habs in the 1964-65, 1970-71, 1972-73 cups finals, so there is no love lost on my part. I just posted to give perspective to what we embrace as a dynasty or the greatest teams of all time.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

Bj : I agree with you here , that 1977 Habs team was the best ever assembled .
60-8-12 win loss tie , 132 points , 216 more goals scored then allowed , 20 points ahead of the second place team over all the Flyer's , 49 points ahead of their second place division rival Los Angeles Kings .

I don't think their will ever be another team do that kind of domination for a season as long as any of us live ...

Oh yeah they were so dominate and the irony is that Bowman had them playing a left wing lock trap system also. John Davidson talked about that one time when asked about the trap and said that actually the trap started in Montreal under Bowman.
By the way, I was wrong, the Rangers last year didn't even have one 60 point man! Gomez led the way with 58 points in 2 extra games than in 1977. Can you imagine what Bettman and company have done to this great game that we all love?
Disgusting!

[peacemaker]

I agree that ifn you are looking for the single greatest team, the Habs teams, from any of those 3 years were clearly the best. I don't think the Oilers or Isles would give them a go.

However, if we are looking at a 'dynasty' I don't think the Habs were as good as the Isles b/c of the way the Habs dropped off the face of the earth. Their reign came crashing to a hault.
The Isles were dominant, even up into that 5th year most of us would have thought they would dominate the young Oil's again.

The Oilers are a tiny bit harder to gauge b/c their streak was a little more spread out, and over a longer period of time. They didn't have the 4 in a row, but were on top for a longer period of time. I would also add in to the mix that their competition (ie Calgary who had an awesome team for a few years as well) was greater than the Flyers or Rangers (for the Isles), or the Bruins (for the Habs).

[Maggie3and Me]

peace,

Agree with your assesment.

That western area provided some stiff competition and some damned good teams.

It is a funny thing about "dynasties". When they end they end suddenly. All of a sudden thud. Again, the parallel with the Yankees.

It seems that no matter how hard others try to copy what a dynasty does, they cannot replicate the results. Then when the ride is over, most times people can speculate but, can't say exactly what happened or when.

Good analysis peace.

[Maggie3and Me]

Jack,

I just got done reading an article on Nick Fotiu.

I did not know he was known for his practical jokes. I started reading this and wound up chuckling at the few incidents they mentioned.

Like the fact that he would replace the whip cream topping of his teammates desserts and replace it with shaving cream.

Putting shoe black on the the hotel room telephones, so when they were used, they would come away with polish on their ears.

One of the best was about what he used to do tho Phil Esposito. He used to take live cockroaches and put them on or in Espo's equipment. He would go to put on his pads or hockey pants, only to see the cock roach walking out of his equipment. It was said Phil would go ballastic when this happened.

You must have heard these, but you probably heard of more. When you can, fill us in on some more of his mischief.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Jack,

I just got done reading an article on Nick Fotiu.

I did not know he was known for his practical jokes. I started reading this and wound up chuckling at the few incidents they mentioned.

Like the fact that he would replace the whip cream topping of his teammates desserts and replace it with shaving cream.

Putting shoe black on the the hotel room telephones, so when they were used, they would come away with polish on their ears.

One of the best was about what he used to do tho Phil Esposito. He used to take live cockroaches and put them on or in Espo's equipment. He would go to put on his pads or hockey pants, only to see the cock roach walking out of his equipment. It was said Phil would go ballastic when this happened.

You must have heard these, but you probably heard of more. When you can, fill us in on some more of his mischief.

Yeah Nicky was brutal. Yes I know all of them and here are some more!
In 1976/77, his roommate became Bill Goldsworthy and lets just say that the late Goldy had developed some issues with his personal life. One night they are on the road in maybe Toronto (I am trying to remember the exact city) and Goldsworthy was sound asleep! In the lobby was a huge lobster tank and Fotiu goes down and grabs a huge live lobster. Goldsworthy was sleeping in his bed and Fotiu puts the live lobster on Goldsworthy's chest. Well you can imagine the rest!
Another time Fotiu woke up early and Goldsworthy woke up sometime later. Fotiu was hiding in the closet. Goldsworthy wakes up and takes a shower. He comes out of the bathroom naked and goes to the closet to grab some clothes and suddenly two powerful arms grab him!
Another near heart attack for Goldie!
Fotiu also got John Ferguson badly a few times. Once was on the team plane. Fergie is sound asleep and Fotiu sneaks up and covers Fergie's face with shaving cream and nuts and cuts his tie in half! He then had the nerve to take a photo of Fergie!
Fotiu also as a member of the Flyers did the same thing to Mike Keenan!
Another time, the Rangers are on the road and Fotiu snuck down to where the breaker box was in the hotel where they were staying. Fergie is in his room and suddenly the goddamn lights are flickering on and off. Fergie being the patient sort calls the desk at once and wants to know what the hell is going on. It was Fotiu screwing with his lights to his room!
Lastly Nicky while in the airport waiting for the plane would tie a $10 to a string and make believe like ten bucks was lying on the floor. Someone would see the money and make a beeline for it and presto no more money!
Nick Fotiu!
I remember one time when Nicky was a Flyer and John Davidson had on Tim Kerr in between periods. Davidson loves Nicky and asked Kerr about his new teammate. Kerr broke into a big smile and told of some of Fotiu's antics and ended with how he had gotten Iron Mike Keenan on the plane!
Nick was a piece of work for sure!

[Maggie3and Me]

big jack,

Great Stuff.

I heard he loved getting John Davidson. He took reams of toilet paper and did a job on Davidson's truck, while it in the parking lot, during a practice at MSG.

I had no idea he was a jokester.

Thanks for the stories big jack, if you remember more, let us know.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Oh yeah they were so dominate and the irony is that Bowman had them playing a left wing lock trap system also. John Davidson talked about that one time when asked about the trap and said that actually the trap started in Montreal under Bowman.
By the way, I was wrong, the Rangers last year didn't even have one 60 point man! Gomez led the way with 58 points in 2 extra games than in 1977. Can you imagine what Bettman and company have done to this great game that we all love?
Disgusting!

BJ : A lot of PPL just don't know that it was the Canadian coaching staff that came up with the system of the left wing lock and the trap , Toe Blake was the first to use it in their system , he taught the system to Scotty Bowman , their are many systems that derived from the Canadians dominating type of play , the players they drafted used to have to spend at least a couple years in the minors until they learned the system of play ...

[Maggie3and Me]

Bert Wilson

You’ve heard about the more famous Wilsons, Dave, Behn and Doug. Do you remember another Wilson. This one named Bert.

Believe it or not he was drafted #23 overall, in the second round of the 1969 draft, by the New York Rangers. After checking his junior and OHL, AHL stats, you have to wonder why. The most noteworthy part of his game were his elbows and his fists.

He stood 6’ 0” and was 180 pounds. He was a left winger, who by his own admission and from what those around him saw, was one of the worst stickhadlers in the game.

Here is quote from an anonymous source in Joe Pelleteirs Greatest Legends of Hockey.

Quote:

Bert Wilson had only one talent - flapping his sharp elbows into the opposition's ribcage. He was the worst stickhandler I ever saw in the NHL. On the rare occasions that Wilson scored a goal it was by one of two ways: The first one was an occasional goal mouth scramble. The second (usual) way was because the opposition refused to check him. In this scenario, the puck would be deep in the opposition's end. Each opposing defense man (usually with the help of a back- checking forward) would drape themselves over Wilson's line mates the moment they touched the puck until they passed it back to Beltin' Bert.

For his career, he played 8 seasons in the NHL, appearing in 478 games. He scored 37Goals, with 44Assists, for 81 total points. He accumulated 646 PIM.
He played five games in the 1973 season, stuck the next season and played his last NHL game in 1981. He was out of the league at 31. He would play 2 more seasons in CHL with the Salt Lake Golden Eagles.

He died on February 28, 1992 of stomach cancer at the age of 42.

Here are some of the partners on his fight card.

Phil Russell
Ted Harris
Danny Gare X 2
Behn Wilson
Stan Jonathan
Terry O’Reilly
Tiger Williams X 2
Wilf Paiment X 2
Paul Holmgren X 2
Larry Playfair
Jack McIlhargey X 2
Barry Beck
Terry Ruskowski
Gary Howat

All in all not a bad card. Here are some videos for you.

YouTube - Behn Wilson vs Bert Wilson

YouTube - Bert Wilson vs Terry O'Reilly 1976

YouTube - Bert Wilson vs Ted Harris

YouTube - Barry Beck vs Bert Wilson - NEWSCAST

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Bert Wilson

You’ve heard about the more famous Wilsons, Dave, Behn and Doug. Do you remember another Wilson. This one named Bert.

Believe it or not he was drafted #23 overall, in the second round of the 1969 draft, by the New York Rangers. After checking his junior and OHL, AHL stats, you have to wonder why. The most noteworthy part of his game were his elbows and his fists.

He stood 6’ 0” and was 180 pounds. He was a left winger, who by his own admission and from what those around him saw, was one of the worst stickhadlers in the game.

Here is quote from an anonymous source in Joe Pelleteirs Greatest Legends of Hockey.

Quote:

Bert Wilson had only one talent - flapping his sharp elbows into the opposition's ribcage. He was the worst stickhandler I ever saw in the NHL. On the rare occasions that Wilson scored a goal it was by one of two ways: The first one was an occasional goal mouth scramble. The second (usual) way was because the opposition refused to check him. In this scenario, the puck would be deep in the opposition's end. Each opposing defense man (usually with the help of a back- checking forward) would drape themselves over Wilson's line mates the moment they touched the puck until they passed it back to Beltin' Bert.

For his career, he played 8 seasons in the NHL, appearing in 478 games. He scored 37Goals, with 44Assists, for 81 total points. He accumulated 646 PIM.
He played five games in the 1973 season, stuck the next season and played his last NHL game in 1981. He was out of the league at 31. He would play 2 more seasons in CHL with the Salt Lake Golden Eagles.

He died on February 28, 1992 of stomach cancer at the age of 42.

Here are some of the partners on his fight card.

Phil Russell
Ted Harris
Danny Gare X 2
Behn Wilson
Stan Jonathan
Terry O’Reilly
Tiger Williams X 2
Wilf Paiment X 2
Paul Holmgren X 2
Larry Playfair
Jack McIlhargey X 2
Barry Beck
Terry Ruskowski
Gary Howat

All in all not a bad card. Here are some videos for you.

YouTube - Behn Wilson vs Bert Wilson

YouTube - Bert Wilson vs Terry O'Reilly 1976

YouTube - Bert Wilson vs Ted Harris

YouTube - Barry Beck vs Bert Wilson - NEWSCAST

Thanks for this! I loved number 14 of the Rangers Bertram Wilson and was always furious at Francis because either he never dressed or played about 2 minutes a game. Then with no muscle to start with, Francis trades almost all his limited grit to the Blues for Davidson! Wilson, Irvine, and Butler go after the 1975 season!
Francis was a moron in the muscle department and man was that so sweet when Wilson bloodied Ted Harris. That same week at home he also bloodied Hank Novak on an NBC game of the week! Pound for pound he was tough and could punch and hurt guys!
RIP Bert!

[bigjack]

Let me give a little more flavor to the Harris and Beck fight's! The Ted Harris fight was a great game from a Ranger fan's standpoint! Remember this was 1974/75 and in Philly and the year after the Rolfe nonsense with Schultz in game 7 of the 1974 playoffs!
This was the second game of a home and home and Ed Giacomin stood on his head and played a great game winning 3-1. The Rangers had lost 4-3 on February 5th and I am almost sure that this game was February 6. I am almost sure that this was the game when Schultz and Bednarski fought at either 13 seconds or 17 seconds and later Schultz is thrown out and almost has a fight with Bill Chadwick up in the TV booths! Schultz was in the Flyers booth and Chadwick said that Schultz was nuts and I guess ole Dave tried to prove the theory and they were screaming at one another over the air. It was great Channel 9 television!
Later that April Schultz got his revenge by jumping and mugging Rick Middleton!
The Beck fight I saw live as that was the Nick Fotiu return game in January of 1981 against the Flames. The Rangers won 6-3 and the only thing they lost that night was Randy Holt beat Boxcar Hospodar in a fight! Fotiu must of thrown 15 hits that night and almost killed Bill Clement in the corner and went after Dan Bouchard who swung his stick at Fotiu! What a game and I felt bad for Wilson!

[bigjack]

YouTube - Hank Nowak vs Bert Wilson

Here is that fight with Hank Novak. Wilson opened him right up and Tim Ryan and Ted Lindsay are giving the commentary on NBC. The Rangers have a fighter and does Francis play him?
This was a Sunday-2/2/75!

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Oh yeah they were so dominate and the irony is that Bowman had them playing a left wing lock trap system also. John Davidson talked about that one time when asked about the trap and said that actually the trap started in Montreal under Bowman.
By the way, I was wrong, the Rangers last year didn't even have one 60 point man! Gomez led the way with 58 points in 2 extra games than in 1977. Can you imagine what Bettman and company have done to this great game that we all love?
Disgusting!

I got looking up some of the history of the Montreal Canadians just out of curiosity , Dick Irvin SR. was the first coach to ever start playing unit hockey out of necessity , he took over as coach in 40/41 and inherited a team that was gutted by the second world war , he had to devise a method of play because all he had was 6 forwards and 4 defense-men and one goaltender , as the year progressed he wound up with 9 forwards .
Over the next 6 years he came up with the trap and left wing lock with the help of his eventual successor Toe Blake who at the time was playing for him .

Just thought I would throw that in as I found it very interesting ...

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

I got looking up some of the history of the Montreal Canadians just out of curiosity , Dick Irvin SR. was the first coach to ever start playing unit hockey out of necessity , he took over as coach in 40/41 and inherited a team that was gutted by the second world war , he had to devise a method of play because all he had was 6 forwards and 4 defense-men and one goaltender , as the year progressed he wound up with 9 forwards .
Over the next 6 years he came up with the trap and left wing lock with the help of his eventual successor Toe Blake who at the time was playing for him .

Just thought I would throw that in as I found it very interesting ...

Very interesting indeed. It's funny but WW2 killed the Rangers. If you examine the Rangers up to 1942 from their initial season of 1926/27, they were a very solid franchise with 3 Cups in 16 seasons and only ONE losing season.
From 1942/43 on, the Rangers didn't have a winning year until 1956 and from 42/43-45/46 went 41-127-32. From 1942-66, the Rangers had ONE winning season and Stan Fischler has often talked or written about how WW2 destroyed the Rangers and it wasn't until there was a common draft that they began to procure talent under Emile Francis!
The Rangers went from a league leading 29 wins in 1941/42 to a league worse 11 wins in 1943, 6 wins in 1944, 11 wins in 1945, and 13 wins in 1946.
Montreal went 38-5-7 in 1943/44, 38-8-4 in 1944/45 so the war didn't affect them like it did that Rangers.
The War absolutely destroyed the Rangers and Fischler being a Ranger expert is 100% right about that. The numbers after 1942 are astounding and Montreal was fine and dandy and in fact great during the War! The Rangers lost all their stars and Rocket Richard was tearing up the wartime NHL scoring 50 goals in 50 games in 1944/45 after scoring 32 goals in 1943/44 and losing no time to WW2!

I wrote ONE winning year, they actually had TWO winning years from 1942-66! That site that I posted next corrects my numbers and me.