Old Farts Thread

[bigjack]

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...418#Fight20418

I found that fight and it has a clip. Yes Kocur landed a bomb that broke Carkner's nose and left blood on the ice. Carkner left with a towel covering his nose!

Thanks to Drop your Gloves website!

[bigjack]

YouTube - Joey Kocur Vs Terry Carkner

Here is a larger version of that fight! I'm surprised that Mickey Redmond wasn't yelling "look out" as he sometimes did for Kocur's big right hand when Joe was cocked and loaded up!

[Pockmarx]

Bigjack,
I have read your stories when you have mentioned a relative who either worked for the Rangers or was nearby the team somehow. This would give you some great inside info about the Rangers and the National Hockey League. I have a question you may be able to help me with concerning the Esposito deal with Boston. I vaguely remember some hockey writer mentioning that the original parameters for the trade was Park and the GAG line for Espos line and Orr. Sinden was tempted, according to this story, but was concerned about the fans reaction. He felt that moving Espo would be bad enough but moving Orr in the same trade would probably get the torches lit and the hounds of hell baying so the deal became modified into the trade it became. Whether or not any of this is true Espo, Cashman, Hodge and Orr wouldn't have helped the Rangers much at this point. I never like bringing someone elses thirty year old on to my roster unless the player is a second line type complimentary player. Hockey being the meat grinder that it is takes a toll on most players physically and mentally. Guys go into cruise control and loaf because they have no incentive to bust it when money is assured in long term deals and the team has no real chance of winning. I would see young hungry guys come up and play hard every night trying to get their dollars up and make a name for themselves. They would be in the league about five or six years, turn twenty nine, get married, put on the helmet and become more concerned about staying healthy than balls to the wall hard play every night. Branch Rickey was right about trading a guy one year too soon than one year too late, a lesson Emile Francis never learned and so the Esposito desperation deal was made. Wasn't Espo a lousy GM? Just before Phil was fired Len Berman asked him about the Rangers lack of stability reflected in all the frenzied trades Espo made. Phil sighed and made some stupid remark suggesting that no team in the NHL has stability. Of course Montreal, the Islanders and Edmonton would disagree. BigJack, I personally feel that you have to learn your craft, go to the minors, work as an assistant GM and climb and earn your way to the top in order to be a good executive. Having a Hall of Fame resume and a big mouth during interviews are not qualifications for running a franchise. I am so tired of hearing this 'New York demands a winner' bull****. If you have to wait you have to wait. As much as we trash Francis, he paid his dues and he learned the business from the bottom up. After all, he just missed by an inch. He did some good things, got close, had a basically sound building philosophy. He failed to see the realities of the gathering storm in the form of the Big Bad Bruins and The Broadstreet Bullies and he stayed at the party too long with the Fat Cats of the '70's. Glen Sather has never made me comfortable as GM. I do not see any kind of coherent plan for building a team and he seems caught up in the bull**** that we in New York need to win NOW!! Thanks for any insight or response. Pockmarx.

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by bigjack

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...418#Fight20418

I found that fight and it has a clip. Yes Kocur landed a bomb that broke Carkner's nose and left blood on the ice. Carkner left with a towel covering his nose!

Thanks to Drop your Gloves website!

Thought I had the right fight, but missed it. Good pick up Jack.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Pockmarx

Bigjack,
I have read your stories when you have mentioned a relative who either worked for the Rangers or was nearby the team somehow. This would give you some great inside info about the Rangers and the National Hockey League. I have a question you may be able to help me with concerning the Esposito deal with Boston. I vaguely remember some hockey writer mentioning that the original parameters for the trade was Park and the GAG line for Espos line and Orr. Sinden was tempted, according to this story, but was concerned about the fans reaction. He felt that moving Espo would be bad enough but moving Orr in the same trade would probably get the torches lit and the hounds of hell baying so the deal became modified into the trade it became. Whether or not any of this is true Espo, Cashman, Hodge and Orr wouldn't have helped the Rangers much at this point. I never like bringing someone elses thirty year old on to my roster unless the player is a second line type complimentary player. Hockey being the meat grinder that it is takes a toll on most players physically and mentally. Guys go into cruise control and loaf because they have no incentive to bust it when money is assured in long term deals and the team has no real chance of winning. I would see young hungry guys come up and play hard every night trying to get their dollars up and make a name for themselves. They would be in the league about five or six years, turn twenty nine, get married, put on the helmet and become more concerned about staying healthy than balls to the wall hard play every night. Branch Rickey was right about trading a guy one year too soon than one year too late, a lesson Emile Francis never learned and so the Esposito desperation deal was made. Wasn't Espo a lousy GM? Just before Phil was fired Len Berman asked him about the Rangers lack of stability reflected in all the frenzied trades Espo made. Phil sighed and made some stupid remark suggesting that no team in the NHL has stability. Of course Montreal, the Islanders and Edmonton would disagree. BigJack, I personally feel that you have to learn your craft, go to the minors, work as an assistant GM and climb and earn your way to the top in order to be a good executive. Having a Hall of Fame resume and a big mouth during interviews are not qualifications for running a franchise. I am so tired of hearing this 'New York demands a winner' bull****. If you have to wait you have to wait. As much as we trash Francis, he paid his dues and he learned the business from the bottom up. After all, he just missed by an inch. He did some good things, got close, had a basically sound building philosophy. He failed to see the realities of the gathering storm in the form of the Big Bad Bruins and The Broadstreet Bullies and he stayed at the party too long with the Fat Cats of the '70's. Glen Sather has never made me comfortable as GM. I do not see any kind of coherent plan for building a team and he seems caught up in the bull**** that we in New York need to win NOW!! Thanks for any insight or response. Pockmarx.

I don't believe it, I just wrote a whole thing here and went to post it and some error came up and I lost the post dammit!
Quickly I never heard of that deal and the GAG Line was gone by then also as Hadfield had been gone since June of 1974 to Pittsburgh for Nick Beverley.
Under Francis, the Rangers tried buying a CUP after 1972 and the WHA paying out HUGE salaries and the team became fat and lazy.
The GAA'S went up from 177 in 1971 to 192, 208, 251, 276 and finally 333 in 1976 and the points went from 109 in 1971 and 1972 to 102, 94, 88, and finally they hit rock bottom with 67.
Francis gets full accolades for building a good team after 1965 but gets major minuses for having a lack of muscle to protect his stars, some leaders who weren't lazy like Hadfield and Park, choosing poor coaches and captains like Hadfield and Park, and making some ridiculous deals like: Red Berenson and Barclay Plager for Ron Stewart, Whitey Widing for Ted Irvine, Syl Apps for Glen Sather, Curt Bennett for Ron Harris, Mike Murphy and Moose Dupont for that moron Gene Carr, later dealing Murphy again with Tommy Williams and Shelly Kannegiesser to LA for another moron Gillies Marotte, Battleship Kelly for Norm Dennis and Don Borgeson(who?), and deciding to draft and sign Wayne Dillon in 1975 rather than sign Marcel Dionne.
I had written alot more but you get the idea!

[Pockmarx]

Bigjack,
Thanks for the correction. Perhaps it was Vickers who was rumored to be in that trade with Ratelle and Gilbert, but its all moot anyway. Had that deal been made it wouldn't have changed a thing. I understand your dilemma with having a story wiped out through some kind of computer error. I have written stories consisting of five or six paragraphs and feeling very pleased with myself have hit 'submit' and have the entire thing launched into cyber-heaven. I'm thinking of hiring a fact checker. I still seem to be getting just a piece of the ball on some of my recollections. There seems to be no one alive who remembers any of this stuff that we talk about, that is why I love this site so much. Keep writing. The more we tell the Ranger world about the Follies of The Cat perhaps we can do all Ranger fans a service by warning them about heightened expectations.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Thought I had the right fight, but missed it. Good pick up Jack.

My computer was so "PHARKED UP" I could not even watch videos , just got every thing back after playing around for the last four days ..

The Carkner vids bring back some real memories , He was one of my sons favorite players when he was with the Flyer's , one tough "SOB" that gave his all every night ....

Thanks guys !!!!

[Maggie3and Me]

He was game and always showed up. He lost his share, but so did the best. His teammates said they felt like they were safer when he was on the ice. To me that's what it's all about.

Did you see him in person, fan. Tell us about it if you did.

Also, should we start up the Old Farts Pharking fund, or are you back up?

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Pockmarx

Bigjack,
Thanks for the correction. Perhaps it was Vickers who was rumored to be in that trade with Ratelle and Gilbert, but its all moot anyway. Had that deal been made it wouldn't have changed a thing. I understand your dilemma with having a story wiped out through some kind of computer error. I have written stories consisting of five or six paragraphs and feeling very pleased with myself have hit 'submit' and have the entire thing launched into cyber-heaven. I'm thinking of hiring a fact checker. I still seem to be getting just a piece of the ball on some of my recollections. There seems to be no one alive who remembers any of this stuff that we talk about, that is why I love this site so much. Keep writing. The more we tell the Ranger world about the Follies of The Cat perhaps we can do all Ranger fans a service by warning them about heightened expectations.

Quickly Gilbert wasn't going anywhere because he was tight with Bill Jennings and everytime Francis wouldn't give him the money he wanted come contract time, Gilbert would threaten jumping to the WHA and Jennings would come to the rescue and ole Rod would get another fat raise!
Gilbert was definitely a great politician and it's one reason why Ferguson hated him. Fergie abused him as a player and one night Gilbert embarrassed the proud Ferguson getting off 16 shots and scoring 4 goals and Ferguson never forgot it! When Fergie arrived in NY he wanted Gilbert out and was basically told he's Jennings boy and wasn't dealt. Gilbert also divided the lockeroom into the guys who backed Gilbert and the guys who backed Espo and Ferguson inherited a disaster!
For a year and a half Gilbert played pretty well so he was safe but when he held out again in 1977 and started off crappy with 2 goals in 19 games, Ferguson got his revenge as part of his Thanksgiving Eve purging! If you recall the game where Nick Fotiu fought Jack McIllharghy at the Garden, I was at that game and the team was dead and only Nicky showed any passion and caring and they lost 3-0 and were booed off the ice. That was a Sunday night game.
Their next home game was against Colorado and they won 6-3 and it was after that game that Ferguson struck and waived Gilbert and Goldsworthy and sent Hodge to New Haven. The Rangers next game was a Saturday matinee game in Boston where the newly called up Eddie Johnstone from New Haven scored 2 goals but the Rangers lost 3-2.
In between the 1st and 2nd period, the funniest thing ever happened on a Rangers telecast. Bill Chadwick was interviewing Ferguson about the moves and Gilbert and Fergie's eyes looked like laser beams he was that intense and it was obvious that Chadwick had indulged too much of the Thanksgiving cheer and his hand holding the mike was shaking uncontrollable. Ferguson is looking at the moving mike looking pis*ed off and suddenly a hand comes into the picture and is grabbing the mike struggling with Chadwick. It looked like Thing from the Adams Family and Ferguson is looking like can you get aload of this sh*t and I was peeing my pants I was laughing so hard. The Chadwick/Ferguson interview ended quickly and it went back to Jim Gordon and the Rangers saw their 2-0 lead become a 3-2 loss in Boston Garden!
What a memory and that was the end of Rod Gilbert in NY!
My point is there is no way that Gilbert would of dealt to Boston with Jennings around and I would never see Boston dealing Orr or Cashman they would of been killed! In fact, Harry Sinden made the deal for the sole purpose of pairing Orr and Park together but unfortunately Orr's knees didn't cooperate and then Orr was never told that Boston wanted to make him a part owner in 1976 and he jumped to Chicago!

[Maggie3and Me]

To pick up the story of Bobby Orr in Chicago, you have to go back to the dismantling of the Big Bad Bruins in the 1975-76 season. Espo is sent to the Rangers, and Bobby could only play in 10 games, due to his bad knees. To give you an idea of the ability of Orr, in those 10 games he scores 5 Goals and 13 assist for 18 Points.

After the 1976 season, negotiations with the Bruins break down. Through the impasse, I agree with Jack, he was not aware of the Ownership plans. Some say the negotiations became heated and a decision was made not to go forward with those plans.

In June of 1976 he signs with the Blackhawks. That year he plays in the first part of the season. His knees become so bothersome, after just 12 games,he has the knees flushed out and does not return until January of 1977. He plays a total of 20 games, scores 4 goals and 19 assists for 23 points.

After yet another surgery on his knees, instead of taking time off, to rest his knees, as he was advised, he tried coming back to soon. He returned to the ice and played in just 6 games. In November of 1978, knowing he no longer could play, he told the Blackhawks he was done.

I saw him as a Hawk only once at the Stadium, in the 1976-77 season. He was obviously was not the same player I saw wearing a Bruins sweater in the years before 1975. There was just enough there to make you dream of what might have been and wish that it would be again.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

He was game and always showed up. He lost his share, but so did the best. His teammates said they felt like they were safer when he was on the ice. To me that's what it's all about.

Did you see him in person, fan. Tell us about it if you did.

Also, should we start up the Old Farts Pharking fund, or are you back up?

No never got to see Carkner in person , but with a son that was and still is a fan of the Flyer's I got to see him a lot when he played for them , we take in their exhibition game every year they play at the john Labatt Center in London Ontario , that's were we have season tickets for Junior A hockey.

Have met such players as Bobby Clark/Brian Propp/ Bob Kelly/Dave Shultz, have been invited to go to Philly all expenses paid to take in a game and keep in touch with Kelly all the time , just one super guy , as you know Jeff Carter is from London , that's all I will say on that .

If My sons job with the post office turns out OK we will make the trip this winter ....

NO you don't have to start a fund , but thanks for the thought ...

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by fansince65

No never got to see Carkner in person , but with a son that was and still is a fan of the Flyer's I got to see him a lot when he played for them , we take in their exhibition game every year they play at the john Labatt Center in London Ontario , that's were we have season tickets for Junior A hockey.

Have met such players as Bobby Clark/Brian Propp/ Bob Kelly/Dave Shultz, have been invited to go to Philly all expenses paid to take in a game and keep in touch with Kelly all the time , just one super guy , as you know Jeff Carter is from London , that's all I will say on that .

If My sons job with the post office turns out OK we will make the trip this winter ....

NO you don't have to start a fund , but thanks for the thought ...

fan,

So we can maybe expect to see some stories about this in the future?

Only post if you are comfortable with sharing. I 'm sure that you have some great first hand stories.

Glad about fund. BENNETT, Jack and I had IOU's ready, not signed, but ready.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

fan,

So we can maybe expect to see some stories about this in the future?

Only post if you are comfortable with sharing. I 'm sure that you have some great first hand stories.

Glad about fund. BENNETT, Jack and I had IOU's ready, not signed, but ready.

Here is one little bit about Kelly .

We were at the EX-game two years ago with a friend of my son and his young 8 year old boy , the boy asked Kelly for his autograph , the father made a comment about the Stanley Cup Ring Kelly was wearing , Kelly promptly took the ring off and handed it to him and told him to put it on and have his son take a picture of the two of them (Kelly/Father) with him wearing Kelly's ring , he has since had the picture blown up to show him wearing the ring , I don't think he has ever washed that hand since ..

My son has a picture of him Bob Kelly and Dave Shultz posted on Face-book , he is a big man (my son /6-3 240) and he looks good standing between the two with his Flyer's jersey on ...

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

To pick up the story of Bobby Orr in Chicago, you have to go back to the dismantling of the Big Bad Bruins in the 1975-76 season. Espo is sent to the Rangers, and Bobby could only play in 10 games, due to his bad knees. To give you an idea of the ability of Orr, in those 10 games he scores 5 Goals and 13 assist for 18 Points.

After the 1976 season, negotiations with the Bruins break down. Through the impasse, I agree with Jack, he was not aware of the Ownership plans. Some say the negotiations became heated and a decision was made not to go forward with those plans.

In June of 1976 he signs with the Blackhawks. That year he plays in the first part of the season. His knees become so bothersome, after just 12 games,he has the knees flushed out and does not return until January of 1977. He plays a total of 20 games, scores 4 goals and 19 assists for 23 points.

After yet another surgery on his knees, instead of taking time off, to rest his knees, as he was advised, he tried coming back to soon. He returned to the ice and played in just 6 games. In November of 1978, knowing he no longer could play, he told the Blackhawks he was done.

I saw him as a Hawk only once at the Stadium, in the 1976-77 season. He was obviously was not the same player I saw wearing a Bruins sweater in the years before 1975. There was just enough there to make you dream of what might have been and wish that it would be again.

The thing is Orr did take off the entire 1977/78 season and yet it still wasn't enough time off. I remember reading an article about him in Sport Illustrated by maybe Mark Mulroy that he was assisting Pulford in an unofficial coaching role and wasn't cashing his paychecks because he couldn't play. That was the type of guy that Orr was!
He came back in 1978 and as Maggie wrote played in 6 games scoring 4 points and that was that and he was officially done at age 30. In reality, his career ended at age 27 in 1975! Playing in the Canada Cup in the summer of 1976 is probably the final thing that ended any hopes of being healthy in Chicago. Orr was so amazing that playing on basically one leg and against Doctor's orders, he led Team Canada in scoring and was voted the Team's MVP. I remember Bobby Clarke saying that he could barely walk and wouldn't practice and all he did was ice his legs and then come game time would suit up and play and it was the most guttiest thing that Clarke said he ever saw!
Orr on one leg played 26 games in Chicago from 1976-78 and scored 6 goals and 27 points on a low scoring Black Hawk team. Think about that! One leg, pain none of us could even imagine and yet over a point a game!
Unreal!

I'll see if I can find something about that 1976 Canada Cup and Orr's courage!

[bigjack]

YouTube - 1976 canada cup game winner

Sittler scoring the game winning goal for Canada in 1976. Great to see a slow Orr on the ice and Espo wearing his number 7 and not that ridiculous 5, 12, or 77 as a Ranger and also Bobby Hull back with his NHL mates!

I'll find some more beauties!