Old Farts Thread

[Maggie3and Me]

Terry Carkner

I have heard this mans name mentioned many times, as the guy that a more famous fighter fought. Clips would be shown and the comments would be what a tough fight, what a brawl, wow what a great fight.

I haven’t seen a great deal written about this 14th pick of the 1984 Draft, by the New York Rangers. Carkner was a 6’03” , 210 pound Defenseman, who was drafted from the Petersborough Petes of the OHL.

In his first season in the NHL, he played in 52 Games, scored 2 Goals, and had 13 Assists for a total of 15 Points. To go along with that, he had 118 PIM. With his size and fighting ability, he was not drafted for his scoring. Here a few of the names he fought during his rookie year. Willi Plett, Wendel Clark, Joey Kocur, Marty McSorely, Joel Otto, and Brian Curran. He was a victim of Dave Brown.

His first couple of years in the league found him being traded twice. Traded to Quebec by NY Rangers with Jeff Jackson for John Ogrodnick and David Shaw, September 30, 1987. Traded to Philadelphia by Quebec for Greg Smyth and Philadelphia's 3rd round choice (John Tanner) in 1989 Entry Draft, July 25, 1988.

It was with the Flyers where Carkner would stand out. He played a solid defense and his fighting ability along with his career offensive year, helped the Flyers reach the Conference Finals in the 1988-89 season. Carkner scored a career high 11 Goals and had a career 32 Assists.

I found this article in the Flyers Encyclopedia.
Quote:
“Taking on Edmonton in the finals twice, the Flyers boasted a team defense among the best in the league. This provided a Stanley Cup-quality reputation, but also pressure to maintain depth on the blue line. A disappointing first round playoff exit resulted in a 1988 offseason move to acquire dependable defenseman Terry Carkner. He helped filled the void of recently departed defensemen such as Brad McCrimmon and Brad Marsh. Additionally, Carkner contributed offensively. He led all Flyer defensemen in scoring during his first season with the team and played in every postseason game as the Flyers fought to within two victories of an appearance in the Stanley Cup finals. He was willing to fight as well, which was much appreciated by the fans. Terry Carkner spent five seasons in Philadelphia, and before a 1993 trade to Detroit, he played in more than 300 games as Flyer. Along with representing the winds of change, the move left tough shoes to fill.”

It was with Philadelphia that he would score 25 of his career Goals and 116 of his assists. There he would also collect 867 of his career PIM. These would be his most productive times of his career. During his time with the Flyers, Carkner was picked to wear and “A” on his sweater.

For his career, he played a total of 13 seasons, before ending his career with the Florida Panthers after the 1999 season. He appeared in 858 Games, scoring a total of 42 Goals and 230 Assists for 272 Points. He accumulated 1,588 PIM and had a career rating of minus 2



Here are some clips from his rookie year.

YouTube - Willi Plett vs Terry Carkner Jan 5, 1987

YouTube - Wendel Clark Vs Terry
Carkner

YouTube - Terry Carkner vs Cam Neely Jan 12, 1987

I will leave you with one final clip of Carkner at work. I am sure you all have a favorite fight of his or of when your fighter fought him. This clip is what hockey fights used to be and with hopes that someday we can return to.

YouTube - Terry Carkner vs. Lyndon Byers

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

November 7/75 is when Espo was traded to the Rangers , Carol Vadnais was also part of the trade but he refused to report because he had a no trade clause in his contract , he later did after the Rangers gave him a raise and a new contract .
Espo said they gave him the "C" upon his arrival , he thought he did not deserve it .
He made a statement in this Bio that I thought was a real surprise (it was to me) he said "DRUG" use was rampant on the whole team , they had thrown a party for him on his arrival , when he asked for a coke some half naked girl brought him and his wife a tray of cocaine and a couple straws , he said he left as fast as his legs would carry him , he also said every player on the team just did not give a s--t if they ever won a game and most of the wives thought the players were only on it for the money , on this team they were right !!!!

I've written about that date many times here and hope I'm not being a pest but will throw out some flavor and why the deal was made and how bad the Rangers situation had become.
As you know my cousin Richie was with the Rangers then so he would fill my Dad in on what was going on with the Rangers. Some of the big topics that summer was that John Davidson had been traded for and that almost all of the Rangers muscle went in that deal! St Louis had acquired Teddy Irvine, Jerry Butler, and Bert Wilson for JD and Billy Collins who we didn't expect would even make the team.
The other big topic was the fact that Francis was leaving the bench again and had promoted Ron Stewart. There were two stigma's there. One was that everytime Francis left the bench, the Rangers became worse! See the Boomer and Larry Popein. Second Ron Stewart was involved in the ugly incident(fight) with Terry Sawchuk on Long Beach in 1970 where a drunken Sawchuk fell into a grill and injured his spleen if I remember and died a month later. Stewart was never charged by the Long Island DA but it was a bad moment and Francis was ripped for hiring Stewart as coach!
If you recall in 1973 when Larry Popein was hired, he was a taskmaster and tough coach and the fatcats rebelled and he lasted half a season and was canned. My cousin told us that Stewart was running a very loose camp and the players were not in shape! I won't mention names here but read Fergie's or Espo's books ironically called the same thing "Thunder and Lightning" and you'll get a flavor for the team that Espo joined under Stewart or Ferguson inherited in January of 1976! It was animal house on ice!
Now to get specific as I have many times here, the Rangers started out slowly in 1975/76 and then defeated Vancover in game 6 I think like 8-1 and Brad Park came out and said all was well in Ranger land and everyone was overreacting to the slow start and to just watch! Remember that Park was the Captain but my old man and I knew that he came to camp woefully out of shape because Richie told us and said Stewart was a joke as a coach!
So what happens?
The next 3 games the don't worry about anything Rangers lost to Buffalo by a 9-1 score, the Islanders by a 7-1 score, and at a game we were at the Flyers by a 7-2 score at MSG and the fans(yes myself included) gave the Rangers all kinds of sh*t! That game was on 10/26/1975!
After the game, we met up with Richie and he said that Francis was livid and expect some big changes. Two days later, bye bye Gilles Villemure to Chicago for Doug Jarrett. Two days after that bye bye Turk Sanderson for a first round pick that became Ron Duguay in 1977. One day after that bye bye to Eddie Giacomin on Halloween night and a full committment to John Davidson as the Rangers goalie and before the Park/Espo deal one more bit of embarrassment for Francis!
Two days after Giacomin was waived and picked up by Detroit, who came into the Garden to play the Rangers! Yes Detroit and Ed Giacomin who received a 10 minute standing ovation before the game and everytime he made a save was greeted with "Eddie, Eddie, Eddie....." and Detroit zoomed out to a 4-0 lead and won the game 6-4 with the emotionally spent Giacomin hanging on!
Francis was getting harpooned by the media and Richie told my Dad you haven't seen anything yet as Francis is ready to blow the thing up and start over! Now remember with all the huge deals that he gave out to Park, Ratelle, Gilbert, Tkaczuk, Stemkowski, Fairbairn, Polis, Marotte, and the kids Hickey and Dillon it was gonna be difficult to move everyone but that was his motivation for the famous 11/7/75 deal!
I have told this story here many times but that afternoon I was in my backyard playing football with a buddy and around 4pm my Mom began banging on the kitchen window motioning me to the window. I went over and she said, "it's your father and he wants to tell you something about the Rangers." I grabbed the phone and found out about Park, Ratelle, and Joe Zanussi for Espo and Vadnais! He had gotten the news in work from my cousin and I was shocked and started yelling to my buddy another Rangers fan! At that moment, we know nothing about Vadnais or the small details but later found out that Espo was furious and Vadnais was furious and that was that!
In true Rangers fashion, Espo shows up in Oakland that night and scored 2 goals and 2 assists in his debut but Gary Sabourin scored 4 goals on Davidson and the Rangers lost 7-5. Espo hurt his ankle the next game in LA and was hurt alot of the year and scored 67 points in 62 games but wasn't the 140 point Espo without Orr and Cashman!
Park and Ratelle go to Boston and Cherry tells Park to get 25 lbs off which he does and played great for Boston even though he injured his knee and scored 53 points in 43 games with 95 minutes. Orr and Park would play a few games together but poor Bobby was limited to 10 games if I recall and then would be gone to Chicago thanks to the lying Alan Eagleson!
Cherry would tell Park to cool it the next year that he needed him on the ice because he didn't have Orr and also had plenty of muscle on the payroll!
Ratelle at age 36 would have a great year also with 90 points in 67 games and then in the playoffs would shine with 8 goals and 16 points in 12 games as he finally was with a team that protected his back in the playoffs! How many times have I written here about Ratelle's 9 goals as the Rangers number 1 center in 65 playoff games because Francis was a moron and never had the proper muscle on the payroll watching Ratelle's back come playoff time!
It wasn't until Donny Maloney arrived that Valentine's day in 1979 for Espo to finally get a corner man who could feed him the puck and make Espo happy! As I wrote, Espo was 37 but scored 42 goals that year and had 20 points in 18 playoff games and almost brought a CUP to NY!
I've written here many times that I can't kill Fergie for dealing Middleton for Hodge for 2 reasons! Espo was miserable in NY and was a pain in Fergie's ass about dealing for either Hodge or Cashman! Cherry couldn't stand Hodge so he was available and loved Cashman even with a bad back so Cashman wasn't going anywhere!
Middleton was "blowing" his way out of the league and left Fergie little reason to keep him and so in the summer of 1976, it was Hodge for Middleton! Why the hell does anyone think that Sanderson was the first guy to go in the 1975 shakeup? He was a horrible influence on the younger Rangers and the team was so bad and it's the mess that Ferguson began to clean up when he arrived!
Someone here recently said Fergie did a poor job over 2.5 years in NY and I disagreed! He took over a sh*thouse and decided in 1976 to go with youth for the most part! He did have some mistakes like not drafting Bossy in 1977 but he listened to his chief scout Tom Savage and was wrong with around 13 other clubs! The Islanders took a flyer and were lucky that Bossy had major balls to take the pounding and also was with a great team! Put Bossy on a team like Washington in those years and he probably wouldn't have been anywhere like he became on the Island!
He also hired JG Talbot and his sweatsuit as coach in 1977 but did so to coach the young defense of Maloney, Greschner, McEwen, Farrish, and Marois and as I wrote the Rangers cut their goals against from 333 against in 1976 to 280 in 1978 and that was with Davidson injured alot! Imagine if Davidson had been healthy!
Talbot was not savvy for the NY media and his english was poor but the guy did help the defenseman.
He also took a flyer on Bill Goldsworthy who was a drunk by then and that was a mistake and brought in vets like: Awrey and Smith thinking they could mentor the young Rangers defense!
The 1978/79 team that went to the finals was Fergie's team that Fred Shero coached and got all the accolades for!

[bigjack]

All I'll say about Terry Carkner is what I've said here many times. Craig Patrick drafted James Patrick, Carkner, Brian Leetch, and Espo signed an overaged junior in Mark Tinordi, and dealt for Michel Petit and if Espo was patient and smart, he could of had an excellent balanced defense of:
Leetch and Patrick for finesse and scoring!
Greschner and Petit for both scoring and hitting and Greschner for veteran leadership!
Tinordi and Carkner for muscle and hitting!
The Rangers backline would of been so balanced and with plenty of toughness also!
Espo blew it!

[bigjack]

By the way, I always gave Carkner the edge in a fight with Clark Gillies at the Garden. I was so pis*ed when I heard that Espo had dealt him for Ogrodnick!

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by bigjack

All I'll say about Terry Carkner is what I've said here many times. Craig Patrick drafted James Patrick, Carkner, Brian Leetch, and Espo signed an overaged junior in Mark Tinordi, and dealt for Michel Petit and if Espo was patient and smart, he could of had an excellent balanced defense of:
Leetch and Patrick for finesse and scoring!
Greschner and Petit for both scoring and hitting and Greschner for veteran leadership!
Tinordi and Carkner for muscle and hitting!
The Rangers backline would of been so balanced and with plenty of toughness also!
Espo blew it!

Carkner would have given them that dimension. Solid play, and as you said balance and toughness. Why after only one year?

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Carkner would have given them that dimension. Solid play, and as you said balance and toughness. Why after only one year?

It's a good question? I don't know what Espo was thinking other than the fact that he liked offense and thought he was getting the 50 goal Detroit Ogrodnick. I seem to remember that Ogrodnick had a great playoff with Quebec and that is what Espo was thinking about but for two years Ogrodnick dogged it in NY until Roger Neilson arrived and then he played pretty good in 1989-90 scoring 43 goals and had 31 goals the next year under Neilson.
Bergeron and Ogrodnick didn't see eye to eye either and that was also a problem. I wasn't a big Bergeron fan but did agree with him that Ogrodnick was dogging it for him!

[Maggie3and Me]

Jack,

This kid was the real deal. He had 118 PIM as a rookie. You saw the list of who he fought. He was not a great skater, but he was solid, a leader, wound up with an "A" on his sweater.

Between your guys and Bob Pulford, it is a wonder we still have teams in the NHL.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Jack,

This kid was the real deal. He had 118 PIM as a rookie. You saw the list of who he fought. He was not a great skater, but he was solid, a leader, wound up with an "A" on his sweater.

Between your guys and Bob Pulford, it is a wonder we still have teams in the NHL.

Someone needs to post his fight with Gillies also as a rookie. Gillies looked funny wearing 39. As I wrote, I was furious when I read that Espo had traded him for Ogrodnick!

YouTube - Clark Gillies vs Terry Carkner

I just watched it again. It was a pretty even scrap but Carkner did a nice job with Big Jethro!

[BENNETTWOLF]

I decided to peruse Carkner's body of work on DYG to point out some highlights and refresh my memory. I recall him as one of those overlooked fighters who handled himself quite well without really recieving acclaim for it. Never a goon but a solid teammate who would take on anyone from time to time and was one of those guys (like a Mark Janssens) who was "sneakily" good because he was very adept at switching hands and was therefore, unpredictable in a fight.

For a long time i considered the epic fight with Byers my favorite fight. It's still among the first that pops to mind as far as defining "toe to toe" along with Nystrom-Bridgman, Delorme-Macoun, Churla-Macguire and so forth.

He also received a lot of credit for the roster of truly elite brawlers that he engaged early in his career. As i said, he shied away from none if called.

DYG highlights: (clips are there for all of these, minus I. Ulanov)

Rick Tocchet 8, 1987-88
B. Mcrae 8.3, 88-89 (this one was fun)
J. Miller 7.8, 88-89
R. Ray 7.7, 91-92 (no video)
B. Probert 8, 91-92
B. May x2 8, 8.3, 95-96
I Ulanov 8, 96-97
T. Harvey 7.5 97-98 (the last fight i recalled him in).

He also had several more 7+ including a go with John Kordic in the brawl filled PHI-Wash game during Kordic's short tenure in the nation's capital. The game's events were touched off by Dale Hunter's disgusting freight train, cheap shot on an unaware and vulnerable Gord Murphy.

[Maggie3and Me]

Good post Jack,

Watched it several times. Saw something I did not notice before. About half was thru it, after Gilles came back, Carkner is busy inside and underneath.

Still a very close fight, but, think Carkner gets the push.

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

I decided to peruse Carkner's body of work on DYG to point out some highlights and refresh my memory. I recall him as one of those overlooked fighters who handled himself quite well without really recieving acclaim for it. Never a goon but a solid teammate who would take on anyone from time to time and was one of those guys (like a Mark Janssens) who was "sneakily" good because he was very adept at switching hands and was therefore, unpredictable in a fight.

For a long time i considered the epic fight with Byers my favorite fight. It's still among the first that pops to mind as far as defining "toe to toe" along with Nystrom-Bridgman, Delorme-Macoun, Churla-Macguire and so forth.

He also received a lot of credit for the roster of truly elite brawlers that he engaged early in his career. As i said, he shied away from none if called.

DYG highlights: (clips are there for all of these, minus I. Ulanov)

Rick Tocchet 8, 1987-88
B. Mcrae 8.3, 88-89 (this one was fun)
J. Miller 7.8, 88-89
R. Ray 7.7, 91-92 (no video)
B. Probert 8, 91-92
B. May x2 8, 8.3, 95-96
I Ulanov 8, 96-97
T. Harvey 7.5 97-98 (the last fight i recalled him in).

He also had several more 7+ including a go with John Kordic in the brawl filled PHI-Wash game during Kordic's short tenure in the nation's capital. The game's events were touched off by Dale Hunter's disgusting freight train, cheap shot on an unaware and vulnerable Gord Murphy.

Good Work BENNETT,

That is really breaking things down.

I mentioned his name kept coming up and when I looked into him I was fascinated. This guy was a leader a very solid player and one tough son of a gun.

No one had really put a lot together on him, so I thought I would give it a try. I found him to be a very respected player by friends and foes alike. I knew a lot of posters would have their favorite fights or memories of him.

Thanks for the post.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

I decided to peruse Carkner's body of work on DYG to point out some highlights and refresh my memory. I recall him as one of those overlooked fighters who handled himself quite well without really recieving acclaim for it. Never a goon but a solid teammate who would take on anyone from time to time and was one of those guys (like a Mark Janssens) who was "sneakily" good because he was very adept at switching hands and was therefore, unpredictable in a fight.

For a long time i considered the epic fight with Byers my favorite fight. It's still among the first that pops to mind as far as defining "toe to toe" along with Nystrom-Bridgman, Delorme-Macoun, Churla-Macguire and so forth.

He also received a lot of credit for the roster of truly elite brawlers that he engaged early in his career. As i said, he shied away from none if called.

DYG highlights: (clips are there for all of these, minus I. Ulanov)

Rick Tocchet 8, 1987-88
B. Mcrae 8.3, 88-89 (this one was fun)
J. Miller 7.8, 88-89
R. Ray 7.7, 91-92 (no video)
B. Probert 8, 91-92
B. May x2 8, 8.3, 95-96
I Ulanov 8, 96-97
T. Harvey 7.5 97-98 (the last fight i recalled him in).

He also had several more 7+ including a go with John Kordic in the brawl filled PHI-Wash game during Kordic's short tenure in the nation's capital. The game's events were touched off by Dale Hunter's disgusting freight train, cheap shot on an unaware and vulnerable Gord Murphy.

Peruse-good word, Carkner was like a Beukeboom as a player except that Big Beuk was so big that he just exploded on guys in the corners with great bodychecks. I do remember Carkner getting his nose broken in a fight with Joey Kocur but that is no disgrace. Ole Joe had thunder in his punches!

[Maggie3and Me]

The quality of Carkner's fight card is amazing. He fought a who's who of hockey tough guys.

Here is the fight you were talking about Jack. About 2/3 the way into the fight Otto catches him flush. Carkner kept throwing em though. A few year latter they fought again and Carkner beat him.

YouTube - Terry Carkner vs Joel Otto

[Maggie3and Me]

Jack,

Did you notice who was shown in the last few seconds of the video. Play it back and look at #22. A little bonus.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Jack,

Did you notice who was shown in the last few seconds of the video. Play it back and look at #22. A little bonus.

Ole Nicky at about 220 lbs of muscle! Yes time has sure zoomed by.
The fight I was referring to was when Carkner was with Quebec and Kocur opened him up breaking his nose and there was blood all over the ice.
I'll quickly look at that Drop your Gloves site and see if that was the fight that I am thinking of.
Carkner of Quebec and Kocur of Detroit from Joe Louis Arena!