Old Farts Thread

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

bigjack , please don't take offence , I enjoy your posts , your knowledge on all sports is undeniable .

I like to read your posts on football/baseball but don't consider myself qualified enough to make comments on either sport as I never played football or baseball , I played fastball and still coach that sport but baseball is not a sport I watch on a regular basis , football , if they never played another game it would not bother me ....

No I actually think you were right. I also was laughing to myself when I realized that a oldtime hockey thread had morphed into a football and baseball thread. Trust me, no offense taken at all!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Cat Smasher

The two of you, have so much knowledge between you both that one could only hope for. You guys are a few of the main reasons this site is as good as it is. From stories to theories to facts to knowledge to opinions, it's all great.

Some of us could only wish we knew what you fine gentlemen knew.

Don't change a thing, either of you.

Thank you both. Respect.

Then hopefully I won't be called out if I offer a different opinion. The same thing happened a few weeks back when I wrote that the BlackHawks got a big advantage when they moved into the West in 1970 and from 1971-73 weren't challenged in the West.
In the East, the Bruins, Canadiens, and Rangers competed for the top spot and Chicago in the West was winning by 20 points in 1971, 21 points in 1972, and they slumped to 93 points in 1973 and still won by 8 points over the improving Flyers. In 1974, the Flyers became a great team and won the division by 8 points over Chicago.
I wrote this and was called out on it like I was some nut for suggesting it. I should of realized then not to disagree or I'd be called out or called intense!
I'd love to continue to offer an honest opinion but don't think I can but thanks for the support! I appreciate it very much.

[Pockmarx]

Bigjack,
I saw your mention of Brians election on the Kevin Collins post. The one injustice that befell this guy was his not winning the Norris in 1994. Ray Bourque won it that year with a 91 point season. I don't give a fried rats ass about the number of points Bourque got that year, BRIAN LEETCH WAS THE BEST DEFENSEMAN IN THE NHL THAT SEASON!!! I remember a game early that year when Keenan benched Brian because he wasn't thrilled with his effort that night. From that point on Leetch outplayed everyone on defense that season. Doc, I need your opinion on a matter. I feel that Brian Noonan and NOT Messier got the game winner in Game Seven. I,like all others, have watched the replay over and over and I still think Noonan got robbed. Please comment on all above. Thanks Pockmarx.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Pockmarx

Bigjack,
I saw your mention of Brians election on the Kevin Collins post. The one injustice that befell this guy was his not winning the Norris in 1994. Ray Bourque won it that year with a 91 point season. I don't give a fried rats ass about the number of points Bourque got that year, BRIAN LEETCH WAS THE BEST DEFENSEMAN IN THE NHL THAT SEASON!!! I remember a game early that year when Keenan benched Brian because he wasn't thrilled with his effort that night. From that point on Leetch outplayed everyone on defense that season. Doc, I need your opinion on a matter. I feel that Brian Noonan and NOT Messier got the game winner in Game Seven. I,like all others, have watched the replay over and over and I still think Noonan got robbed. Please comment on all above. Thanks Pockmarx.

Very true, very true on all your points.
Leetch had a great 1994 season and of course an epic playoff with 34 points in 23 games. He was awesome that playoff year and was at the peak of his game. The amazing thing is as awesome as he was and he was awesome, an Orr was so much better. Not a knock at all on Leetch but Orr was superman on skates!
Leetch scored 11 goals also that playoff so lets do some quick math! Over 82 games, Leetch would of scored 121 points on 39 goals and 82 assists! That was awesome from a defenseman and when it counted most and that was the best that we ever saw Leetch and his season wasn't as great with 79 points and 23 goals in 84 games but he also had 67 penalty minutes that year and played great defense with Big Beuk!

[Maggie3and Me]

Ted Lindsay

What would you think of a player whose nickname was “Scarface”. Ted Lindsay in addition to being called Terrible Ted, earned the name Scarface by having so many stitches in his face., even he lost count. By his own word, he lost count at 400 stitches. It is accepted as fact that the number of stitches came close to 1.000

At 5’ 08” and 160 pounds, your first thought of his profession would be anything other than one of the best Left Wings in the history of the National Hockey League. Even in the days of the Old Original Six, Ted Lindsay was considered small and under weight. Yet, he managed to play for 17 seasons in the NHL.

He broke into the league with the Detroit Red Wings in the 1044-45 season, as a 19 year old rookie. He played on a line with Syd Howe and Mud Bruneteau in those days and would go on to enjoy a 17 year career in the league. He would have some of his greatest success playing on a line with another Howe.

For those who are unfamiliar with the term Original Six, it refers to the teams that made up the league from 1942 to the expansion of 1967. The play then was a lot different than the game we see today. There were no designated fighters, every one was expected to skate, score, pass, and fight and be responsible for their actions. No matter how big or small, Yes there were enforcers, pests and to a certain capacity, goons. Add to this each team played each other 14 times a season. I lot of hostility built up as a result of this.

This is necessary to mention, as Lindsay was undersized, even by the standards of the day. There was no place to run or hide. So Ted made the choice to stand up and fight for himself, and his teammates too, In those 17 seasons Terrible Ted, Scarface Ted, earned 1,808 PIM. I can find no records of him ducking a fight, no matter of the size of his opponent.

Here is a quote from Legends of Hockey.
Lindsay stepped in as a rookie and played on a line with the great Syd Howe and playoff hero Mud Bruneteau. Lindsay, though a small player, made his on-ice presence felt. He was full of moxie and never showed any hesitation in waging wars with the biggest and baddest men in the league. He was rough, often mean and occasionally dirty.

Players created their own space on the ice. The more space created, the better the chance to score or make something happen. Passing the puck to set up plays, make space for team mates, and to aggravate the other team.

Ted Lindsay became so good at it, in 1948, he was promoted to one of the most famous lines in the history of the NHL, the Production Line. His line mates were Syd Abel at center and Gordie Howe at right wing. They would play together until 1955. During that time the Red Wings would win 7 straight league and 4 Stanley Cups. For three straight seasons this trio would finish 1-2-3 in team scoring.

In 1957 a trade moved Lindsay to the Chicago Blackhawks, traded to Chicago by Detroit with Glenn Hall for Johnny Wilson, Forbes Kennedy, Hank Bassen and Bill Preston. He retired after the 1960 season and tried a comeback that lasted only 7 games in 1064.

I had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Lindsay play the 1959-60 season with the Blackhawks. Even at 34 years old, with the wear and tear of playing many years of no quarter asked, no quarter given hockey, this undersized dervish was a delight to see. That year, he scored 34 Points and had 91 PIM.

What does not show on any score sheet is what he brought to a floundering franchise. It is no secret that the Hawks were a terrible team during most of the 50’s, making the playoffs just once in the 1953 season. What Mr. Lindsay brought to this team was discipline and leadership.

Coming from the winning program the Wings had, Mr. Lindsay instilled a fire and a purpose to the Hawks. His competitiveness was contagious and soon the inept team he arrived at began showing signs of life. His spark ignited a franchise. The proof of this came in the form of the Stanley Cup in 1961, the year after Mr. Lindsay initially retired.

I have included his statistics and awards to show a yard stick of measurement to his peers. For his heart, his desire, and his devotion to the sport he loved, he has no peers. Knowing he would suffer the consequences of his actions, he and Doug Harvey proceed were others failed. This truly goes to the measure of the man.

For his career Mr. Lindsay played for 17 NHL seasons, appearing in 1,068 Games, He scored 379 Goals and had 472 Assists for a total of 851Points. He added 1,808 PIM.
Below are some of his achievements.

Stanley Cups 4
1949-50 Art Ross Trophy
11 straight All Star teams from 1947 to 1967 (all 1st team except 1949, 2nd ).

However the achievement he cherishes most was the one that caused his trade from his beloved Red Wings.

Quote: Greatest Legends of Hockey, by Joe Pelletier

“Although he ranks as one of if not THE greatest left wingers in hockey history, perhaps his off ice achievements are his greatest legacy. He, and Doug Harvey, organized a handful of players who were courageous enough to stand up and challenge team ownership and organize the first professional hockey player's union, now known as the NHLPA.

He, and Doug Harvey, organized a handful of players who were courageous enough to stand up and challenge team ownership and organize the first professional hockey player's union, now known as the NHLPA.

On February 12th, 1957 the NHLPA's formation was announced, and almost immediately NHL owners looked to squash the movement. Each team began the successful disintegration of the player's movement, and they went to whatever lengths were deemed necessary. Jack Adams, the Red Wings legendary boss, was particularly irate and intimidate everyone of his players, and in most he was very successful. He unleashed a system campaign of lies and personal attacks on Lindsay, scaring most of the Red Wings players into backing away from certification votes.

The most notable name to back down was Gordie Howe, the best player in the league. Without Howe's commitment, the NHLPA was doomed to fail, and Lindsay knew it. This whole episode caused a major rift between the two that has never been fully healed.

For his union organizing activities, Detroit had little choice but to trade Lindsay to Chicago in 1957.”

"A series of rumors about my attitude, as well as derogatory remarks about myself and my family showed me that the personal resentment of the Detroit general manager toward me would make it impossible for me to continue playing hockey in Detroit," said Lindsay.

In 1977,Mr. Lindsay returned to the Red Wings as General Manager. He made over 40 player moves and the Wings, the following year went from worst in the league to 2nd place, He was named executive of the year.

Every player since that 1957 attempt to unionize owes Mr. Lindsay a debt. Except maybe Gordie Howe.

[hockey doc]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Ted Lindsay

What would you think of a player whose nickname was “Scarface”. Ted Lindsay in addition to being called Terrible Ted, earned the name Scarface by having so many stitches in his face., even he lost count. By his own word, he lost count at 400 stitches. It is accepted as fact that the number of stitches came close to 1.000

At 5’ 08” and 160 pounds, your first thought of his profession would be anything other than one of the best Left Wings in the history of the National Hockey League. Even in the days of the Old Original Six, Ted Lindsay was considered small and under weight. Yet, he managed to play for 17 seasons in the NHL.

He broke into the league with the Detroit Red Wings in the 1044-45 season, as a 19 year old rookie. He played on a line with Syd Howe and Mud Bruneteau in those days and would go on to enjoy a 17 year career in the league. He would have some of his greatest success playing on a line with another Howe.

For those who are unfamiliar with the term Original Six, it refers to the teams that made up the league from 1942 to the expansion of 1967. The play then was a lot different than the game we see today. There were no designated fighters, every one was expected to skate, score, pass, and fight and be responsible for their actions. No matter how big or small, Yes there were enforcers, pests and to a certain capacity, goons. Add to this each team played each other 14 times a season. I lot of hostility built up as a result of this.

This is necessary to mention, as Lindsay was undersized, even by the standards of the day. There was no place to run or hide. So Ted made the choice to stand up and fight for himself, and his teammates too, In those 17 seasons Terrible Ted, Scarface Ted, earned 1,808 PIM. I can find no records of him ducking a fight, no matter of the size of his opponent.

Here is a quote from Legends of Hockey.
Lindsay stepped in as a rookie and played on a line with the great Syd Howe and playoff hero Mud Bruneteau. Lindsay, though a small player, made his on-ice presence felt. He was full of moxie and never showed any hesitation in waging wars with the biggest and baddest men in the league. He was rough, often mean and occasionally dirty.

Players created their own space on the ice. The more space created, the better the chance to score or make something happen. Passing the puck to set up plays, make space for team mates, and to aggravate the other team.

Ted Lindsay became so good at it, in 1948, he was promoted to one of the most famous lines in the history of the NHL, the Production Line. His line mates were Syd Abel at center and Gordie Howe at right wing. They would play together until 1955. During that time the Red Wings would win 7 straight league and 4 Stanley Cups. For three straight seasons this trio would finish 1-2-3 in team scoring.

In 1957 a trade moved Lindsay to the Chicago Blackhawks, traded to Chicago by Detroit with Glenn Hall for Johnny Wilson, Forbes Kennedy, Hank Bassen and Bill Preston. He retired after the 1960 season and tried a comeback that lasted only 7 games in 1064.

I had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Lindsay play the 1959-60 season with the Blackhawks. Even at 34 years old, with the wear and tear of playing many years of no quarter asked, no quarter given hockey, this undersized dervish was a delight to see. That year, he scored 34 Points and had 91 PIM.

What does not show on any score sheet is what he brought to a floundering franchise. It is no secret that the Hawks were a terrible team during most of the 50’s, making the playoffs just once in the 1953 season. What Mr. Lindsay brought to this team was discipline and leadership.

Coming from the winning program the Wings had, Mr. Lindsay instilled a fire and a purpose to the Hawks. His competitiveness was contagious and soon the inept team he arrived at began showing signs of life. His spark ignited a franchise. The proof of this came in the form of the Stanley Cup in 1961, the year after Mr. Lindsay initially retired.

I have included his statistics and awards to show a yard stick of measurement to his peers. For his heart, his desire, and his devotion to the sport he loved, he has no peers. Knowing he would suffer the consequences of his actions, he and Doug Harvey proceed were others failed. This truly goes to the measure of the man.

For his career Mr. Lindsay played for 17 NHL seasons, appearing in 1,068 Games, He scored 379 Goals and had 472 Assists for a total of 851Points. He added 1,808 PIM.
Below are some of his achievements.

Stanley Cups 4
1949-50 Art Ross Trophy
11 straight All Star teams from 1947 to 1967 (all 1st team except 1949, 2nd ).

However the achievement he cherishes most was the one that caused his trade from his beloved Red Wings.

Quote: Greatest Legends of Hockey, by Joe Pelletier

“Although he ranks as one of if not THE greatest left wingers in hockey history, perhaps his off ice achievements are his greatest legacy. He, and Doug Harvey, organized a handful of players who were courageous enough to stand up and challenge team ownership and organize the first professional hockey player's union, now known as the NHLPA.

He, and Doug Harvey, organized a handful of players who were courageous enough to stand up and challenge team ownership and organize the first professional hockey player's union, now known as the NHLPA.

On February 12th, 1957 the NHLPA's formation was announced, and almost immediately NHL owners looked to squash the movement. Each team began the successful disintegration of the player's movement, and they went to whatever lengths were deemed necessary. Jack Adams, the Red Wings legendary boss, was particularly irate and intimidate everyone of his players, and in most he was very successful. He unleashed a system campaign of lies and personal attacks on Lindsay, scaring most of the Red Wings players into backing away from certification votes.

The most notable name to back down was Gordie Howe, the best player in the league. Without Howe's commitment, the NHLPA was doomed to fail, and Lindsay knew it. This whole episode caused a major rift between the two that has never been fully healed.

For his union organizing activities, Detroit had little choice but to trade Lindsay to Chicago in 1957.”

"A series of rumors about my attitude, as well as derogatory remarks about myself and my family showed me that the personal resentment of the Detroit general manager toward me would make it impossible for me to continue playing hockey in Detroit," said Lindsay.

In 1977,Mr. Lindsay returned to the Red Wings as General Manager. He made over 40 player moves and the Wings, the following year went from worst in the league to 2nd place, He was named executive of the year.

Every player since that 1957 attempt to unionize owes Mr. Lindsay a debt. Except maybe Gordie Howe.

When one looks in the dictionary under hockey player there should be a picture of Ted Lindsay there. When people use the phrase "they don't make them like they used to" they are referring to Lindsay. I wish I had seen him play, that type of hockey player is what makes the game so enjoyable to watch. I watched Rick Tocchet, Wendel Clark, Cam Neely, and others players like them who, sadly, were the last of a dying breed. Are there any forwards in the NHL today that comes close to resembling those warriors? Iginla, possibly.

[Pockmarx]

Bigjack,
I loved the Jeff Beukeboom addition to the Rangers. I believe Jeff was a player to be named later from a previous deal. I still cannot understand why Edmonton would give up on a young, large, healthy, defensively sound player who loved to throw big hits every night. I used to call his body checks 'Beuke-boomers'. Jeff was also a pretty good fighter. As for Orr I feel he is the greatest hockey player ever. Nobody and I mean nobody comes close. My comments on dropyourgloves concerning Orr and Howe are there for anyone to see so I won't bore anyone by going over it again. I understand it is inconceivable for many to think that Gretzky wasn't the hands down best. But I would suggest that Waynes fans never had to sit on the edge of their chairs watching the Stanley Cup Finals when Bobby Orr had the puck on the powerplay and he was about to take one of his patented ten inch-off-the-ice-just-inside-the-post killers that would put a knife through your guts and a blade to the balls of your favorite team.

[BENNETTWOLF]

You'll find many admirers of Jeff Beukeboom here. There's virtually nothing to dislike even for a opposition fan. He was "honest muscle" to me. When i think of him, i think of Tinordi and others. MUCH cleaner than Steve Smith, hence the "honest" tag. A top pair, robust blueliner who was a perfect foil for Leetch and deserves credit for B.L's recent HOF induction.

He can play on my mythical team anytime.

Regarding "powerforwards", i think David Backes of ST. Louis was the only 30goal/ 150pim guy this past year. I liked him in the playoffs and recall he touched off a truly robust game with my caps by fouling and hurting Alexander Semin with a questionable play. I can't recall if it was a hit from behind or a crosscheck but he injured Semin...............like that hasn't happened before

I was very impressed with him in the first round. He and Mcdonald were, by far the best blues in the good bit i saw of the matchup with the Canucks.. He played with a very nasty, chippy edge and showed well on 1st line duty as you would think with 30 goals. I like the guy and would like to be more familiar with him to see what his game is all about and whether he skates a fine line of being a pest or being dirty etc.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Pockmarx

Bigjack,
I loved the Jeff Beukeboom addition to the Rangers. I believe Jeff was a player to be named later from a previous deal. I still cannot understand why Edmonton would give up on a young, large, healthy, defensively sound player who loved to throw big hits every night. I used to call his body checks 'Beuke-boomers'. Jeff was also a pretty good fighter. As for Orr I feel he is the greatest hockey player ever. Nobody and I mean nobody comes close. My comments on dropyourgloves concerning Orr and Howe are there for anyone to see so I won't bore anyone by going over it again. I understand it is inconceivable for many to think that Gretzky wasn't the hands down best. But I would suggest that Waynes fans never had to sit on the edge of their chairs watching the Stanley Cup Finals when Bobby Orr had the puck on the powerplay and he was about to take one of his patented ten inch-off-the-ice-just-inside-the-post killers that would put a knife through your guts and a blade to the balls of your favorite team.

Oh yeah Big Beuk has still not been replaced. One of those underrated defensive physical defenseman that any good team needs. The Islanders had Langevin or Lane, the Oilers had guys like Fogelin, Smith, Jackson, or Beukeboom, the Devils had Daneyko, Boston had Dallas Smith, Montreal had Terry Harper and Ted Harris, the Flyers had Ed Van Impe and Moose Dupont as examples of underrated defenseman who were physical and not great point men but invaluable!
Beuk was a steal as part of the Messier package that evolved over a couple months. Edmonton got Dave Shaw as part of the official/unofficial package for Messier. Messier and Beukeboom for Nichols, Shaw, Debrusk, and Rice. Pretty sweet from a Ranger perspective and then throw in Graves for Mallette as compensation and Neil Smith should of been wearing a mask when he phoned Sather.

[peacemaker]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

You'll find many admirers of Jeff Beukeboom here. There's virtually nothing to dislike even for a opposition fan. He was "honest muscle" to me. When i think of him, i think of Tinordi and others. MUCH cleaner than Steve Smith, hence the "honest" tag. A top pair, robust blueliner who was a perfect foil for Leetch and deserves credit for B.L's recent HOF induction.

He can play on my mythical team anytime.

Regarding "powerforwards", i think David Backes of ST. Louis was the only 30goal/ 150pim guy this past year.
I was very impressed with him in the first round.

A very impressive player.
He was looking like he would be an average player at best (23 and 31 point seasons over his 1st 2 seasons)...

New 'Nuck GM stepped in and his first business was to offer Backes a RFA offersheet (was it 3 mill?)...

The Blues ended up matching and keeping him, but everyone in Vancouver thought WTF, 3 million for Backes...

But, Gillis was right on the money. He will get way more next contract. Every team would love a guy like him.

The 'Nucks had to settle for trading for another kid, kind of in the same mold...Steve Bernier. Big, skilled guy, who plays physical, but isn't mean like Backes. Thus far he hasn't shown quite the skills Backes did this past yr, but I really liked the way Bernier played as well in the series vs the Blues.

You're right, Backes and MacDonald were very impressive in that opening round.

[Maggie3and Me]

Thanks Doc,

I was very privileged to see Ted Lindsay play for the Hawks in 1959. He never took a shift off and expected that type of play from those around him. The team he played with that year boasted a great amount of talent.

Bobby Hull, Pierre Pilote, Bill Hay, Kenny Wharram, Stan Mikita, Glen Hall, Al Arbour and the others.

He came to the Hawks before I moved back to Chicago, but the next door neighbor that I mentioned, who introduced me to hockey along with his son, told of Lindsay's arrival. He said you could almost see a change in the way the players went about business after he arrived.

Coming from the winning tradition of Detroit, he instilled that attitude in with the Hawks. To give you an idea of what I mean, the tough, hard nosed, aggressive style can be shown in the team penalty minutes. Not just fights, but overall aggressive play.

Lindsay came to us in 1957 and left in 1960. Here are team PIM for the year before he arrived until the Hawks won the Cup in 1961

1956-57 -PIM 809 (Had only one playoff appearance in 12 seasons prior to his arrival)
1957-58 -PIM 906 (Lost in Semi's)
1958-59 -PIM 921 (Lost in Semi's)
1959-60 -PIM 970 (This was his last year as a Hawk)
1960-61 -PIM 1,072 This was the Cup year

He helped those around him play at a more intense level. In the year I saw him play he was a spark plug and always at the center of the action.

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

You'll find many admirers of Jeff Beukeboom here. There's virtually nothing to dislike even for a opposition fan. He was "honest muscle" to me. When i think of him, i think of Tinordi and others. MUCH cleaner than Steve Smith, hence the "honest" tag. A top pair, robust blueliner who was a perfect foil for Leetch and deserves credit for B.L's recent HOF induction.

He can play on my mythical team anytime.

Regarding "powerforwards", i think David Backes of ST. Louis was the only 30goal/ 150pim guy this past year. I liked him in the playoffs and recall he touched off a truly robust game with my caps by fouling and hurting Alexander Semin with a questionable play. I can't recall if it was a hit from behind or a crosscheck but he injured Semin...............like that hasn't happened before

I was very impressed with him in the first round. He and Mcdonald were, by far the best blues in the good bit i saw of the matchup with the Canucks.. He played with a very nasty, chippy edge and showed well on 1st line duty as you would think with 30 goals. I like the guy and would like to be more familiar with him to see what his game is all about and whether he skates a fine line of being a pest or being dirty etc.

BENNETTWOLF,

Good call on Backes. I thought his play improved as the season went on and steadied in very well , by seasons end.

Here are a few snipets for you.

YouTube - Ryan Hollweg vs David Backes Oct 1, 2008

YouTube - David Backes vs Cam Barker Nov 14, 2008

[fish7]

Originally Posted by peacemaker

A very impressive player.
He was looking like he would be an average player at best (23 and 31 point seasons over his 1st 2 seasons)...

New 'Nuck GM stepped in and his first business was to offer Backes a RFA offersheet (was it 3 mill?)...

The Blues ended up matching and keeping him, but everyone in Vancouver thought WTF, 3 million for Backes...

.

The Blues matched within an hour or two. I can't ever remember any team matching so quickly. I am just about willing to call him a throw-back player like Scott Mellanby

[Maggie3and Me]

Just got back from a convention,

peacemaker and fish7, enjoyed reading your posts regarding Backes.

I was at the game where Backes and Barker fought. Two things surprised me in that fight. First, Barker did very well against a more accomplished fighter, in fact it was a bit of a turning point for him. To me he became a more physical presence after that game.

Second, I was impressed by Backes strength and stamina. Although both players are about 6' 03", Barker is about 10 pounds heavier, making them about evenly matched. He was not pushed around and pushed back without problem. He was able to keep from being tied up and was able to keep throwing.

I appreciated your remarks about how quickly the Blues re-signed him.

[Maggie3and Me]

Poster!,

Now that we have all the names submitted for the All Small Team, let's start voting on who should be on the starting team and on which line.

We will tally the votes and post those results.

Thank you for your participation,

M3M