Old Farts Thread

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by jkidd

Good morning gents.

Not to change the discussion entirely, but had dinner with some my grandparents and some other odd family members, and as the conversation does so often, it became a hockey round table discussion (first time we had all got together after the Parise/Suter signings by the Wild). This weekend's topic was the Norris trophy given Ryan Suter.
*Edit - given Ryan Suter joining the club and hopefully being a Norris hopeful*

My grandpa, being a former defenseman, instantly got into the fact that as good as Suter is offensively, he'd rather see a defenseman win the Norris for doing that defensive thing. Of course, my uncle brings up the fact of how the Norris changed given the Potvin's and Orr's of the world which completely redefined the position. Next was then the Secretary of Defense who seemingly re-re-defined the position by playing some of the stingiest defense the game had seen. It then became a discussion on how Orr and Potvin, and more recently, Bourque and Leetch "ruined it" for guys like Scott Stevens, Ken Daneyko, and Adam Foote.

The conversation then turned to "well these current guys score points AND shut down the other teams top forwards." Which, to an extent maybe true, but given the high PP times, and the fact that offensive defenseman like Duncan Keith, Zdeno Chara, and Erik Karlsson are often paired with a guys who will not leave the blue line and be there to do the real dirty defensive work - like Brent Seabrook, Dennis Seidenberg, and Chris Phillips or Filip Kuba are these guys really the best at both - or just a benefits of the situation and specialization of the position now?

We had silence at that moment... and that's where I bring you guys in, a couple days later. Some of you have seen the art of the defenseman change through the decades and the Norris essentially be transitioned to an offensive defenseman's trophy. Do you agree or like this change, or is it something you're not overly thrilled about given the real defensive heroes go unsung?

Hey, jkidd, thanks for stopping by and for thinking of the thread when your family had its discussion. Not to get in trouble with your uncle, but, IMO, the Norris hasn’t changed all that much.

I know this is a little lengthy, but I hope you see where I am going with this.

Below, is the wording for the Norris Trophy:
The James Norris Memorial Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position"

I did a little research on this and came up with this information.

The Norris was first given at the end of the 1953-54 season to Red Kelly of the Detroit Red Wings. He was a tough and hard nosed player, who also played a lot of center for the Wings. I saw him play after Detroit traded him to the Maple Leafs in the early 1960’s, where he also played defense and center. He won the first Norris with 49 points.

The next guy to win it is certainly one of the greatest defenseman of all time, Doug Harvey, of the Canadiens. He won the Trophy four years in a row from the 1954-55 season to 1957-58. The lowest point total he won the award with is 41 points. He had 49, 44, then 50 points before that.

The next guy is one of my heroes, Pierre Pilote. He won it three times in a row. The first year he won the trophy for the 1962-63 season, he scored only 18 points. Doug Harvey had 39 points that year, Red Kelly had 60. Leo Boivin, the great Bruins blue liner had 26

Through the late 60’s and early 70’s,Orr had a strangle hold on the award winning it 8 times. The most in NHL history. He was first awarded the trophy for the 1967-68 season and he scored just.31 points. I say just, because in the second of his 8 year run of winning the award he scored 64 points. The next 6 years he scored over 100 points a season.

In the 1975-76 season Dennis Potvin won the first of his three awards of the Norris. He had 98 points. The next year Big Bird won his first trophy with 85. Potvin won the next two with 94 and 101 points respectively.

I’m not going to go year by year, but, as you have seen, there was a trend of the Norris winners scoring in the 85 to 105 point range for a long time. It stayed that way until Rod Langway won the award in the 1982-83 season with 32 points. That same year, Paul Coffey had 96 points. The next season Langway won it again with 33 points, Coffey had 126 points. Bourque had 73 and 96 points for the same two seasons.

When Coffey won it back to back 1984-85 and 1985-86, he had 121 and 138 points. From that time until Bryan Leetch won the award in the 1991-92 season, with 102 points, the lowest total of points for a defenseman who won was 73.

From that 1991-92 season, until the present, no award winner has 100 points. The closest was Bourque with 91 in the 1993-94 season. In the 10 years from the 2002 season until now, the most points an award winner put up is 80 by Lidstrom, in 2005-06. For 20 years, no defenseman has won the award with more 91 points.

To me, it is the game that changed around the defenseman, rather than what the trophy was awarded for. The trophy has always been for the dual play, or all around play of the eventual award winner. As noted, winners of the award, did not always have the highest point totals in the year they won.

The point totals of the awards winners seem to mirror the attitude of the league. Do they want to be offensive minded or defensive mined. It also seems to mirror rules changes instituted by the league.

You raised a very good point in your references to the defensive pairings. In order for one defenseman to rush up ice and do things in the neutral zone, his partner has to be able to play solid defensive hockey. The tough stay at home defense of Serge Savard, for the most part, let Big Bird do what he did. All of your examples, put a point on it.

Here are the top 5 Norris Trophy winners
Bobby Orr -----------------8
Doug Harvey --------------7
Lidstrom -------------------7
Bourque --------------------5
Pierre Pilote ---------------3
Chelios ---------------------3
Coffey --------------------3
Denis Potvin --------------3

Thanks again for stopping by.

[mikebflorida]

I'm still trying to figure out how Rod Langway managed to win 2 Norris with Paul Coffey running around? Staggering to me still over 20 years later. I think randy Carlyle snuck in a Norris during the early 80's, too lazy to look it up but that was with Robinson, Potvin, Borque and others tearing it up.

I've always thought trophies in hockey could be somewhat political where a guy will win when he's not deserving (compared to others) and others win it seems just for the sake of the game, that it's important for player X to win said trophy because he has more fans or something.

Rod Langway may have been the best all around dman those years but it's really hard to imagine him winning over Coffey who had triple or quadruple the point totals and tearing it up in the regular and playoff seasons while Langway's teams never even managed to make the finals, not even the conference finals if memory serves. From my research, Langway is credited with "saving the Capitals franchise" which is pretty funny since he was a stay at home dman but he also finished 2nd to Gretzky for the MVP one year! Amazing! But I'm calling shenanigans on that because the Caps franchise was darn near folding at that time and any good press they could get was very valuable.

What the league was saying was that Langway was better than Trottier, Simmer, Gillies, Bossy, Borque, Tim Kerr, Lanny McDonald, Denis Savard, Marcel Dionne, Michel Goulet, All Secord, Bobby Clarke, Peter Stastny, Federko, Kurri, Messier, Glenn Anderson, Steve Larmer, Kent Nilsson, Rick Vaive, Charlie Huddy (+62), Brian Sutter with 46 goals and 254 pims, Brian Propp with 12 game winning goals, and probably a dozen other guys were better than Langway but he was 2nd in the Hart voting? Really?? Won the Vezina over Huddy, Coffey, Potvin, etc???

No doubt Langway was valuable to his team but out of all those players listed above he was more valauable? Amazing.

Playoffs aren't supposed to matter but they should, in my opinion. If you're that good, your team will make the playoffs, and it's such a huge part of the season now and even back then, the great players shine and make their team better.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

I'm still trying to figure out how Rod Langway managed to win 2 Norris with Paul Coffey running around? Staggering to me still over 20 years later. I think randy Carlyle snuck in a Norris during the early 80's, too lazy to look it up but that was with Robinson, Potvin, Borque and others tearing it up.

I've always thought trophies in hockey could be somewhat political where a guy will win when he's not deserving (compared to others) and others win it seems just for the sake of the game, that it's important for player X to win said trophy because he has more fans or something.

Rod Langway may have been the best all around dman those years but it's really hard to imagine him winning over Coffey who had triple or quadruple the point totals and tearing it up in the regular and playoff seasons while Langway's teams never even managed to make the finals, not even the conference finals if memory serves. From my research, Langway is credited with "saving the Capitals franchise" which is pretty funny since he was a stay at home dman but he also finished 2nd to Gretzky for the MVP one year! Amazing! But I'm calling shenanigans on that because the Caps franchise was darn near folding at that time and any good press they could get was very valuable.

What the league was saying was that Langway was better than Trottier, Simmer, Gillies, Bossy, Borque, Tim Kerr, Lanny McDonald, Denis Savard, Marcel Dionne, Michel Goulet, All Secord, Bobby Clarke, Peter Stastny, Federko, Kurri, Messier, Glenn Anderson, Steve Larmer, Kent Nilsson, Rick Vaive, Charlie Huddy (+62), Brian Sutter with 46 goals and 254 pims, Brian Propp with 12 game winning goals, and probably a dozen other guys were better than Langway but he was 2nd in the Hart voting? Really?? Won the Vezina over Huddy, Coffey, Potvin, etc???

No doubt Langway was valuable to his team but out of all those players listed above he was more valauable? Amazing.

Playoffs aren't supposed to matter but they should, in my opinion. If you're that good, your team will make the playoffs, and it's such a huge part of the season now and even back then, the great players shine and make their team better.

The thing that surprised me was Coffey's third Norris in 94/95 when he was playing for Detroit .
He only played in 45 games that year in the regular season , granted he did have 58 points in that 45 games and was a plus 18 , but hell you dont give the Norris to a player that sat out almost half the season ..

[Johnny Pie]

Originally Posted by fansince65

The thing that surprised me was Coffey's third Norris in 94/95 when he was playing for Detroit .
He only played in 45 games that year in the regular season , granted he did have 58 points in that 45 games and was a plus 18 , but hell you dont give the Norris to a player that sat out almost half the season ..

Bobby won his first one in 68 and only played 46 games [pretty sure]. But he was Bobby Orr. He dominated most games he was in. I doubt Coffey had the same impact although he was a fantastic pure skater.

[BENNETTWOLF]

I've always supported the idea of two trophies being awarded for defensemen. One to recognize the fairly anomymous but exceptional blueliners and the classic "norris" trophy for blended, all around play which is actually exhibited by virtually all of it's winners (minus coffey, who wasn't exactly the best defender ever).

Langway was that good. Besides possibly saving the franchise, his rock solid game in his own end combined with an exceptional outlet pass was tough to beat. There are many guys in this forum who have watched more hockey for a longer period of time and with a more critical eye (etc) but Rod was the best (strictly) defenseman i've ever watched. Simply outstanding. Very few mistakes and rarely beaten. Just a perfect partner for an offensive threat on any all time team.

I'm not disputing coffey's truly unique abilities (and i didn't see Orr) but i'd bet he made more mistakes in a game than langway did in a month. As the saying goes "speed kills". He could be responsible for two goals in his own end and still kill you with five points. Absolute polar opposites.

Langway at his three year peak played with two other HOF backliners in a young stevens and Larry Murphy and was clearly superior to both.

[Johnny Pie]

I remember Langway and he was as solid and dependable in his own end as anyone. He was physical ,a good passer,blocked shots, and almost impossible to beat one on one. He deserved his Norris trophys. Coffey because he put up unbelievable offensive numbers won his Norris trophys, he was a gifted offensive player who was given his due. But to say he should have won the years Langway won is incorrect im my opinion and to say Langway coming in 2nd in the MVP voting shows some kind of shenanagins is way off. He was as important to the Caps as any player was to his team. Because he didn't score doesn't have any bearing on his impact on the games he played in. I think Stevens was robbed of a Norris and it would have been worse if they also screwed Langway. Pronger,Chara, even Chelios were known more for their stellar defensive work even if they had some offense to their game. That is why for the most part the Norris did go to the all around best defenseman.

[Maggie3and Me]

Good discussion on defenseman and the Norris Trophy.

Since we have had a lot of input and comments regarding blue liners who should or should not have won the award, I thought we might take this one step further. Kind of nice off season exercise to keep us thinking of hockey and our favorite teams.

In your opinion, who do you think are the four best defenseman you have seen. Why four? As jkidd so wisely pointed out, for every Keith, your need a Seabrook to stay home and mind the store. Serge Savard, who never won the Norris, made it possible for Big Bird to get the award.

Your choices don’t have to be for a pairing. You can choose from different pairs, or even different eras.

The only thing is you personally had to see them. You could have seen them in person or on TV, it doesn’t matter. This should get the juices flowing a bit and get us in the mood for the start of training camp.

Don’t be shy.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Good discussion on defenseman and the Norris Trophy.

Since we have had a lot of input and comments regarding blue liners who should or should not have won the award, I thought we might take this one step further. Kind of nice off season exercise to keep us thinking of hockey and our favorite teams.

In your opinion, who do you think are the four best defenseman you have seen. Why four? As jkidd so wisely pointed out, for every Keith, your need a Seabrook to stay home and mind the store. Serge Savard, who never won the Norris, made it possible for Big Bird to get the award.

Your choices don’t have to be for a pairing. You can choose from different pairs, or even different eras.

The only thing is you personally had to see them. You could have seen them in person or on TV, it doesn’t matter. This should get the juices flowing a bit and get us in the mood for the start of training camp.

Don’t be shy.

Maggs , when it comes to teams building around their "D" it's real hard to find a better team than the Montreal Canadiens of the sixties , seventy's . eighties .
Their top four at the start of the 60/61 season was Talbot , Tremblay , Langlois , Harvey .
Then came the seventies , at the start of the 70/71 season they had J.C Tremblay , S.Savard , G. Lapointe , and Laperriere as their top four .

In the eighties they had 8 D-men that could have been the top four on any team , they started the 80/81 season with a top four of Larry Robinson , Rod Langway , Serge Savard , Guy Lapointe , with the likes of Rick Chartraw , G.Gingras , Brian Engblom and Pierre Picard rounding out the eight and could be top four on any team in the league .
Not hard to build a team when you have 8 D-men like that to start with ..

For my top pairing I have to go with two EX Bruins , Bobby Orr - Ray Bourque ..


PS :: I have seen every player that I posted play ..

[Johnny Pie]

Fan ,many probably don't remember much of J.C. Tremblay. He was a smooth offensive defenseman. He was top notch for the Habs before the big 3 of Robinson,Savard, Lapointe. When you look at the d-men they had in that time period it was amazing. From the 60's thru to the 80's unreal. Guys like
Laperriere aren't even mentioned but he was another solid D-man. One thing about Tremblay is he was not physical and teams tried to push him around. I remember Sather pounding him in a game at the Garden as a Ranger. I agree with your top pairing Orr and Bourque. Robinson and Lidstrom probably my next pair. To thing the Bruins could have had Orr, Park and Bourque playing on the same team. That would have been something !!!!

[mikebflorida]

Ray Borque, Paul Coffey, Bobby Orr, and Scott Stevens.

Coffey and Orr were the smoothest skaters and great passers and shooters while Stevens was the hardest, most fearless hitter I ever saw, and Borque was just a great all around combination of those 3 guys, skate, shoot, hit, pass, score, and was super smart.

There might be better dmen than Stevens, he did have the benefit of playing in front of Brodeur for much of his career and as has been said, Robinson was always paired with someone really good and was on great teams that dominated their era.

Honorable mention to Nik Lidstrom, maybe the smartest player ever in the NHL, he just didn't hit enough for my liking but I certainly wouldn't kick him off my team.

If I can go to a 6th dman, I'd take Robinson for size, good defense, intelligence, and durability.

Orr, Coffey, Stevens, Borque, Lidstrom, and Robinson. Not a bad lineup.

[Johnny Pie]

couldn't put Stevens in my top 4 all time but I agree he was right there with being tops in hitting and just plain physical play. This guy was a beast. They probably would suspend him 10 times a year if he played today.

[Flyer_Frank]

Four cup rings, 3 Norris Trophies, first Dman to top 1000 points, as fierce a hitter as anyone in his day and a song written about him. I have him at #2 all time behind only Orr.

The Potvin Sucks song - YouTube

Legends Of Hockey - Denis Potvin - YouTube

[Johnny Pie]

Originally Posted by Flyer_Frank

Four cup rings, 3 Norris Trophies, first Dman to top 1000 points, as fierce a hitter as anyone in his day and a song written about him. I have him at #2 all time behind only Orr.

The Potvin Sucks song - YouTube

Legends Of Hockey - Denis Potvin - YouTube

I can now discuss Potvin without the hatred that kind of clouded any discussion I had of him earlier. After this year when has a commentator he said when asked to rate the alltime best dmen" Orr was like the Beatles it is him first and then everyone else". For years I hated him for saying Orr didn't deserve the MVP in the 76 Canada Cup, and actually talking like he was as good. Now I can honestly say he was a great all around d man could hit,great shot, good passer and good lugging the puck. I still would not have him #2. No way. I think Bourque, Robinson and probably Lidstrom were better. I would put him possibly 5.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Johnny Pie

I can now discuss Potvin without the hatred that kind of clouded any discussion I had of him earlier. After this year when has a commentator he said when asked to rate the alltime best dmen" Orr was like the Beatles it is him first and then everyone else". For years I hated him for saying Orr didn't deserve the MVP in the 76 Canada Cup, and actually talking like he was as good. Now I can honestly say he was a great all around d man could hit,great shot, good passer and good lugging the puck. I still would not have him #2. No way. I think Bourque, Robinson and probably Lidstrom were better. I would put him possibly 5.

I dont have Potvin in the top five even , top ten yes , but when we have players like Orr , Harvey , Bourque , Lidstrom , Pilote , Chelios , or even the forgotten one MARK HOWE , I put Potvin in the top eight maybe , but not top five , I still carry a grudge and always will ..

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by fansince65

I put Potvin in the top eight maybe , but not top five , I still carry a grudge and always will ..

It's a testament to his greatness. People don't rank him higher not because he doesn't deserve it but because they hated him as an opponent. Mark Howe? Watched him in his prime and his HOF selection was years overdue, loved and respected him as a player and hated Potvin too but wouldn't even consider him over Potvin.