Old Farts Thread

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by peacemaker

cf,
I'm with you.I find it fascinating to look at guys that came in to the league, looked like soild (or even better) players for a long time...

How in the world does someone peak as a rookie? Confidence, partying or injuries I suspect.

Jack, I wrote a post in RW on Chris Valentine years ago. Totally dumbfounding. He finished his career averaging more than a point per game, but was done after 2 seasons.
If I recall correctly, he was a horrible skater (I never saw him skate, but that was the word on him even when he was putting up the numbers.

I believe Rico Fata, perhaps as a bantam player, was talked about as a future superstar in the NHL. He was, as FS mentioned, horrible.

Jere Gillis and Rick Blight....
The Canucks had the worst luck with these guys. Guys would come in to the league and look like they had a great future, but what you had was a bunch of guys who were peaking in their first 1,2, or 3 seasons in the league and then on their way out.

Dale Tallon: 56 points as a rookie. 44 and 37 points after that in Vancouver.
Jocelyn Guevermont: 51 points as a rookie. 42 and 39 after that, and out of town.

Think of that: The Nucks had those 2 kids come in as back to back 1st round picks, who based upon there rookie seasons should have been the backbone of the team for a long time...Instead they peaked as rookies, and were each gone after their 3rd season.

Blight 25,28 and 25 goals in his first 3 season, and then essentially a minor leaguer after that.

Gillis: 23 goals as a rookie, and boom he is done.

Ververgaert: peaked at 37 goals in his 3rd season, and began a pretty quick decent on his way out of town (and the league soon after)

People would give Nucks management grief for their poor drafting, but I think their drafting was actually excellent. Their player development however was horrific. Guys would come to Vaancouver prepared to succeed, but within a short time, we'd make sure we did everything to undo that preparation.

The Nucks have an NHL castoff right now, Andrew Ebbett, who had a 32 point season in 48 NHL games as a rookie (4 goals in 10 games with the 'Nucks thus far in very limited minutes)...I suspect he will be out of the league within 1-2 seasons. Before this season, after those impressive rookie numbers, Anaheim only gave him 2 games before unloading him.

Dennis Ververgaert was a player all us London Knight fans thought was a can not miss player when he got to the NHL .
His numbers in junior were impressive to say the least , in 70/71 (his rookie season ) he put up in 62 games played 39-48-87 followed by two great seasons , in 71/72 62 gp 44-73-117 and again in 72/73 62 games played his numbers were 58-88-147 , thats what got him drafted in the first round 3rd overall by the Canucks .
The Blazers (WHA) also drafted him , but apparently they didn't see the same thing the Canucks did , they picked him in the 6th round 67th overall ..

[Redtown]

Originally Posted by peacemaker

cf,
I'm with you.I find it fascinating to look at guys that came in to the league, looked like soild (or even better) players for a long time...

While its totally unrelated to the meaning of your sentence this inicident popped into my head. For some unknown reason this inicident comes to my mind a couple of times every year. This was early in Keith Primeau's rookie season. This might have even been his first game because at the time it happened I remember thinking to myself, oh boy I wonder how long this guy is going to last. Anyway the video doesnt show it but after he got out of the box he went looking for revenge on the hit.

Galley checks Primeau into pen box 12/4/90 -...

[fansince65]

On the flip side we have a player like Basil McRae that no one ever thought would get to play in the NHL , he fooled every fan In London , over 15-16 seasons for a multitude of teams he played in something like 575 games . became one of the premiere enforcers ever , racked up 2453 penalty minutes and was a fan favorite where ever he played , GO FIGURE ..

[Gunslinger]

Good call Fan. Basil is a guy who does'nt get nearly enough due on this site IMO. He and Churla formed one of the best duo's ever. Nobody pushed the Stars around and when you threw Tinordi into the mix they were not a team to be taken lightly.

[BrianTheAdsFan]

Don't want to get the discussion off track...

Happy New Year to all in the best Hockey Thread on the board!

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

Good call Fan. Basil is a guy who does'nt get nearly enough due on this site IMO. He and Churla formed one of the best duo's ever. Nobody pushed the Stars around and when you threw Tinordi into the mix they were not a team to be taken lightly.

Another London Knight no one ever dreamed would make the NHL was Krys Barch , he fell into the same category as McRae , where ever he went he became a fan favorite , I think he played in the Minors for 5-6 years before making the Stars .
Another surprise player that made it to the show that will drop the mits with anyone ..

[Broons66]

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

Good call Fan. Basil is a guy who does'nt get nearly enough due on this site IMO. He and Churla formed one of the best duo's ever. Nobody pushed the Stars around and when you threw Tinordi into the mix they were not a team to be taken lightly.

Thats what made those '90s Norris Division matchups must see hockey! The entire division was stacked with tough guys,top to bottom. Probert,Kocur,Grimson,Peluso,Manson,Clark,Churla,M cRae,and on and on. Miss those days!

[peacemaker]

BigJack...
How about a kid named Dan McCarthy?

Drafted in the 15th round by the Rag's...

Gets called up to the bigs, scores 4 goals in 5 games, and never plays another NHL game!

He retired with 4 goals in his only 5 NHL games.

I'd love to be privy to both his and his head coaches thoughts after he scored that 4th goal...

He was probably thinking "I always knew I could play in the NHL..."

Shero: "Wow, this kid really sucks..."

[peacemaker]

In that 78 draft the Nucks drafted Bill Derlago, Curt Fraser and Stan Smyl with their first 3 picks.
656 goals between the 3 of them.

The Colorado Rockies drafted Mike Gillis 5th overall in that draft, after Derlago, and right before Behn Wilson.
After only 1 season, after having invested the 5th pick overall in him, in a very good draft, the Rockies left Gillis unprotected in the NHL entry draft.

Kind of crazy when you think of that now. Imagine your team drafting someone that high and then giving up on him that same season.

But, that's why they were the Rockies.

Imagine the Rockies having both Behn Wilson and Barry Beck on defence???
Man, that would have been scary!

[canuckfan]

Originally Posted by bigjack

How would you like as your right wings:

Smyl
Neely
Vaive
Bure

I know that ole Stanley Steamer came in 1978 and was gone by the time Bure showed up in 1990 but Smyl, Vaive, and Neely could of all been Canucks together.

Aw, BJ, thats just cruel! Its one thing to be constantly reminded of the never ending flow of terrible Canuck trades and draft busts, but to be teased about what might have been is just going too far!

Mind you, I have seen it argued before that without trading Derlago and Vaive to the Leafs for Williams, that maybe the Canucks never would have made that run to the '82 finals, that Tiger had that much of an impact on the team, both on and off the ice.

But for others like Ashton, Neely, etc those are much tougher blunders to swallow. In regards to the Neely trade, the one thing that REALLY intrigues and tortures me about that deal is the first round pick - yeah, we all know the Bruins used it to draft Glen Wesley, but would the Canucks have done the same? Its easy for a cynic to imagine that given the state of the Canucks management before Pat Quinn's arrival, they may have gone with Wayne McBean, Chris Joseph or Bryan Fogarty instead of Wesley if they really wanted a d-man - but what about local boy Joe Sakic, who was selected 15th overall that same year by the Nords? The Canucks have a spotty history of drafting, trading for, or signing players and kids from British Columbia, and Sakic grew up in nearby Burnaby - its very tempting to believe the Canucks, had they NOT made the Neely trade and kept that first round pick, might have used their pick to select Sakic.

So, in my alternate reality, the Canucks in the late 80s have a lineup that includes Neely, Sakic, Smyl, Tanti, Skriko, and Adams, later joined by Linden and Bure - has me drooling a little! All thats missing is that stud on the blue line, but a healthy Paul Reinhart could have gone a long way!

Anyhow - Canuck fans are dreamers, and that's always been my little dream. But then stupid reality seeps in and I'm forced to accept that it is what it is...

[Maggie3and Me]

I have been down with bronchitis for the last few days and not able to post.

I just wanted to stop in and wish everyone and their family and loved ones:

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by peacemaker

BigJack...
How about a kid named Dan McCarthy?

Drafted in the 15th round by the Rag's...

Gets called up to the bigs, scores 4 goals in 5 games, and never plays another NHL game!

He retired with 4 goals in his only 5 NHL games.

I'd love to be privy to both his and his head coaches thoughts after he scored that 4th goal...

He was probably thinking "I always knew I could play in the NHL..."

Shero: "Wow, this kid really sucks..."

I'm trying to remember but think he was another victim of Herb Brooks. With his size, you would think he would of fit the Herb Brooks Smurfs program. I think he scored in his first 4 games and then didn't score in his 5th game. I could be wrong but seem to remember seeing 4 goals in 4 games when looking at the THN stats that we used to get each week on every team.
Fred Shero was long gone, he actually played those 5 games for Craig Patrick.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by canuckfan

Aw, BJ, thats just cruel! Its one thing to be constantly reminded of the never ending flow of terrible Canuck trades and draft busts, but to be teased about what might have been is just going too far!

Mind you, I have seen it argued before that without trading Derlago and Vaive to the Leafs for Williams, that maybe the Canucks never would have made that run to the '82 finals, that Tiger had that much of an impact on the team, both on and off the ice.

But for others like Ashton, Neely, etc those are much tougher blunders to swallow. In regards to the Neely trade, the one thing that REALLY intrigues and tortures me about that deal is the first round pick - yeah, we all know the Bruins used it to draft Glen Wesley, but would the Canucks have done the same? Its easy for a cynic to imagine that given the state of the Canucks management before Pat Quinn's arrival, they may have gone with Wayne McBean, Chris Joseph or Bryan Fogarty instead of Wesley if they really wanted a d-man - but what about local boy Joe Sakic, who was selected 15th overall that same year by the Nords? The Canucks have a spotty history of drafting, trading for, or signing players and kids from British Columbia, and Sakic grew up in nearby Burnaby - its very tempting to believe the Canucks, had they NOT made the Neely trade and kept that first round pick, might have used their pick to select Sakic.

So, in my alternate reality, the Canucks in the late 80s have a lineup that includes Neely, Sakic, Smyl, Tanti, Skriko, and Adams, later joined by Linden and Bure - has me drooling a little! All thats missing is that stud on the blue line, but a healthy Paul Reinhart could have gone a long way!

Anyhow - Canuck fans are dreamers, and that's always been my little dream. But then stupid reality seeps in and I'm forced to accept that it is what it is...

Sorry, to be fair about Rick Vaive, he was not being a good citizen with the Canucks and I think that was the main reason why he was dealt. He was just a kid and not playing that good and the Canucks went for the sure player in the Tiger.
To deal Derlago however and only get Bugsy Butler back was pretty bad. Regarding 1982 and Tiger, it's probably a fair point but to have those 3 guys all Canuck right wingers was something else.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

I have been down with bronchitis for the last few days and not able to post.

I just wanted to stop in and wish everyone and their family and loved ones:

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!

Get better Rog and Happy 2012.

[peacemaker]

I agree with cf...
I've posted on the subject supporting the Tiger trade (or at least arguing that it wasn't as one sided as the stat's would make it appear).

Tiger was a very key player in our march to the Cup finals vs the Isles.

With Vaive and Derlago, the Leafs were a league laughing stock for all or most of their tenure. Derlago's commitment to being the best he could be was always in question.

When Derlago first came to the 'Nucks camp after being the 4th pick, he came in overweight. I believe he had 0 points in his first 3 games, and frustrated Nucks managment shuffled him off to Dallas. He was called up a short time later, and looked to be every bit the player he was thought to be when we drafted him. I believe he had 4 goals and 4 assists in the next 5 games after being called back up. In the 6th game, Dennis Potvin low bridged/hip checked him, and took out his knee. He was done for the yr.
Next season, that same play never materialized and he was shuffled out of town.

Knee surgeries were pretty dicey back then. I guess the Nucks may have been rightfully suspicious that he could recapture his game.

Getting rid of Vaive though was alway nutty. He was given 40+ games. He obviously had leadership abilities as he went on to be a leader with the Leafs. He often talked about trading in his 50 goals seasons for a chance to hoist the Cup. That's the kind of guy you want on your team.

But as we've discussed, the Nucks at the time were all about, 'you produce like a seasoned pro, or we are dumping you'...

But to be fair I don't think we ever get Tiger without Vaive going back the other way. But to throw in Derlago seemed like serious overkill. But maybe the word around the league was that his knee might have ruined his career???