Old Farts Thread

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

You would think you were describing me here Jack , but I am not George McPhee !!
I played with a back brace also , was 5-9 165 - 170 and just loved to fight ...

George was one of my all time favorites because of his heart , he gave 110% all the time , and this from a player that when he was off the ice could not walk half a mile because of his back , that took more courage just to play then any player other then the great Bobby Orr , they both used crutches to get to the arena ....

Sorry for your back woes and pain and the career of McPhee was such a shame. The guy was a Hobey Baker award winner from Bowling Green and had good hands and skills and also was tough. If he could of ever stayed healthy would of been a 25 goal man and 50 point man with toughness but it wasn't meant to be.
The poor SOB leaves the Rangers and goes to the Devils and scores like 3 goals in 6 games or something like that and gets injured again and missed the entire year! Just tragic like Orr who was so damn great!
The best that I ever saw for sure!

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by bigjack

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...264#Fight21264

Here is that fight from drop your gloves. Thanks for mentioning that site a few weeks back!

What a slugfest and each guy was injured. McPhee broke his right hand and went lefty!

WOW!

bigjack,

Wow, is a very good word to describe the action in that fight Not only were they both throwing, they were both landing some good shots.

Sometimes, people get so focused on the heavyweights, they forget about the smaller guys. More often than not you get better, or at least more action from the lighter weights. This fight sure showed that.

For us "old farts", that saw the action of the Original Six, one thing is very clear. Most of the players were from 5'7" to 6'0" and weighed between 165 to 185.

Hell, on the 60-61 Hawks, only 6 players were over 6 feet tall.

To give an example of what the players were like, I am going to list the top four PIM leaders for that year.

1. Pierre Pilote 5'10" 175 pounds PIM 165
2. Reggie Fleming 5'8" 170 pounds PIM 145
3. Eric Nesterenko 6'2" 195 pounds PIM 125
4. Murray Balfour 5'9" 175 pounds PIM 123

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

bigjack,

Wow, is a very good word to describe the action in that fight Not only were they both throwing, they were both landing some good shots.

Sometimes, people get so focused on the heavyweights, they forget about the smaller guys. More often than not you get better, or at least more action from the lighter weights. This fight sure showed that.

For us "old farts", that saw the action of the Original Six, one thing is very clear. Most of the players were from 5'7" to 6'0" and weighed between 165 to 185.

Hell, on the 60-61 Hawks, only 6 players were over 6 feet tall.

To give an example of what the players were like, I am going to list the top four PIM leaders for that year.

1. Pierre Pilote 5'10" 175 pounds PIM 165
2. Reggie Fleming 5'8" 170 pounds PIM 145
3. Eric Nesterenko 6'2" 195 pounds PIM 125
4. Murray Balfour 5'9" 175 pounds PIM 123

Thanks for mentioning that site. I am looking at it when I have a chance! Yeah the pocket rocket was a guy with a reputation as an excellent fighter and don't pis* him off and he was only 5'7" also. Maurice was evidently much more dirtier and a bit of a stick man and Henri was much smaller and cleaner but could throw his dukes!

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Thanks for mentioning that site. I am looking at it when I have a chance! Yeah the pocket rocket was a guy with a reputation as an excellent fighter and don't pis* him off and he was only 5'7" also. Maurice was evidently much more dirtier and a bit of a stick man and Henri was much smaller and cleaner but could throw his dukes!

The Richards

Bigjack,

I really did not mention the Richards in my post. However, It goes to the size of the players at the time. I thought you might like this information about them.

There are volumes of material about these two, most of it you know. I thought I would give you a little story of seeing the brothers playl

The year was 1959. Although I was born in Chicago, my family moved to California for awhile. We came back in the summer of that year. Our next door neighbor and his son, who was a year younger than I, were not fans. They were fanatics. Thank God for that.

I had only seen a few games on TV, before. I was not familiar with the terms of the game, what those lines on the ice meant, despite their efforts to explain the game to me. I had yet to see my first game in person.

I tried to follow the game and check the players numbers, but quickly found out, I could not do both. This is before names were sewn on the backs of sweaters. My neighbor laughed a little and said for the Hawks, just look for #9, #21,#3 and #7, also the two big guys behind the rest.

Turned out the players were, in order, Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Pierre Pilote and Ted Lindsay. The two big guys were Eric Nesterenko and Moose Vasko.

For the other team he said watch #4, #5,#9, and #16 he said they would be were most of the action would be.

In order Jean Beliveau, Bernie Geoffrion, Maurice Richard, and Henri Richard.

I did not know at the time, it would be the year that Montreal would win the cup again, or that Maurice “Rocket” Richard, would retire after the playoffs due to leg problems going back to a torn achillies tendon in the 1957 season. A lot of people don’t realize that the Rocket had almost 1300 PIM in his 18 seasons. He had 85 or more 8 times. He was good with stick and his fists if needed, He was 5’10” and 170 pounds, fitting the size of players at the time. He had 544 goals and 421 assists for 965 points

Little brother, Henri “Pocket Rocket”, was listed at a generous 5’7” and 165 pounds. He was a pest., a pain in the ass, an instigator, and one of the best at what he did. He also was dirtier tha Maurice, but not as good as fighter. He wound up with over 900 PIM. He had 358 goals and 688 assist for 1046 points.,

Later when I did go the Stadium, I had learned enough about the game to appreciate what I was seeing. I am so grateful to those fanatics for a lifetime addiction to this game.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

The Richards

Bigjack,

I really did not mention the Richards in my post. However, It goes to the size of the players at the time. I thought you might like this information about them.

There are volumes of material about these two, most of it you know. I thought I would give you a little story of seeing the brothers playl

The year was 1959. Although I was born in Chicago, my family moved to California for awhile. We came back in the summer of that year. Our next door neighbor and his son, who was a year younger than I, were not fans. They were fanatics. Thank God for that.

I had only seen a few games on TV, before. I was not familiar with the terms of the game, what those lines on the ice meant, despite their efforts to explain the game to me. I had yet to see my first game in person.

I tried to follow the game and check the players numbers, but quickly found out, I could not do both. This is before names were sewn on the backs of sweaters. My neighbor laughed a little and said for the Hawks, just look for #9, #21,#3 and #7, also the two big guys behind the rest.

Turned out the players were, in order, Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Pierre Pilote and Ted Lindsay. The two big guys were Eric Nesterenko and Moose Vasko.

For the other team he said watch #4, #5,#9, and #16 he said they would be were most of the action would be.

In order Jean Beliveau, Bernie Geoffrion, Maurice Richard, and Henri Richard.

I did not know at the time, it would be the year that Montreal would win the cup again, or that Maurice “Rocket” Richard, would retire after the playoffs due to leg problems going back to a torn achillies tendon in the 1957 season. A lot of people don’t realize that the Rocket had almost 1300 PIM in his 18 seasons. He had 85 or more 8 times. He was good with stick and his fists if needed, He was 5’10” and 170 pounds, fitting the size of players at the time. He had 544 goals and 421 assists for 965 points

Little brother, Henri “Pocket Rocket”, was listed at a generous 5’7” and 165 pounds. He was a pest., a pain in the ass, an instigator, and one of the best at what he did. He also was dirtier tha Maurice, but not as good as fighter. He wound up with over 900 PIM. He had 358 goals and 688 assist for 1046 points.,

Later when I did go the Stadium, I had learned enough about the game to appreciate what I was seeing. I am so grateful to those fanatics for a lifetime addiction to this game.

Great stuff and you are so fortunate to have seen these guys. My old man always told me that from the blueline in, the Rocket was one of the best that he ever saw. He said that Howe was a better all around player but the Rocket was deadly after gaining the zone and could really finish!
I was lucky enough to have seen some of these guys but not all!
Bobby Hull, Mikita, Henri Richard, Jean Beliveau, and Nesterenko is who I was lucky enough to have seen.
Great stuff!

[BENNETTWOLF]

More pests. Apologies if some have been mentioned.

Tomas Sandstrom (he probably has)
Tony Granato (is it just me or did he get under everybody's skin)
Bernie Nicholls (great player but something about him bugged me batsh-t...see above)
Claude Loiselle (most likely just a gritty 4th line center doing his best)
Bobby Holik (there's a true one...........weird, i like him)
Laurie Boschman (the west's version of Dale Hunter? had to do something for all those Pims)

Garth Butcher was more blue collar and heart and soul but he's like Hunter, just never took nights off, was abrasive as sandpaper and ugly to boot

At least Holik might qualify on this "fishing trip". Sue me, i'm bored

There's also a "gray area" between perceptions. Butcher for example. Chris Chelios was pretty hated. Certain guys like good honest grinders such as Keith Crowder or more annoying ones (Duane Sutter) and a lot of defensive forwards who hustled so much. Bill Berg was always in your face like flypaper but i generally like the shadow type guys. I'm stretching to fill time............Jim Nill was another good honest grinder who probably annoyed a few opposing fans..........actually he was a pretty honorable sort..........as was banging and crashing Lou Francischetti. Nevin Markwart's nomination reminded me of those two.

[Maggie3and Me]

BENNETTWOLF,

Your mention of Garth Butcher brought back a lot of memories, none of them very good. That is a testament as to how good Butcher did his job. While he was with the Canucks and the Blues, we here in Chicago saw all of him we wanted.

I liked your reference to Chelios, they are quite similar in how they got the other team of their game, plus, both were defensemen.

I thought you might like this.

Garth Butcher

Butcher played an aggressive style and earned a reputation as a classic "needler" who distracted opponents or provoked them into taking penalties. In 1989, Gerard Gallant of the Detroit Red Wings was suspended five games for retaliating and deliberately attempting to injure Butcher.

Butcher was not a prolific fighter but was still regarded as a tough, capable opponent. His December 26, 1988 fight with Mark Hunter of the Calgary Flames resulted in Hunter missing part of the season due to a concussion.

In his near-decade and 610 games with the Canucks, Butcher amassed a club-record 1,668 penalty minutes, a mark eventually broken by Gino Odjick. His perseverance and battling attitude earned him the respect of the Canuck fans and team.After his retirement, the Canucks organization placed him in the sixth spot on their list of the 50 Greatest Canucks of all time.

Late in the 1990-91 season, the St. Louis Blues were in first place overall and GM Ron Caron was looking to improve the team's defence for the playoffs. On March 5, 1991, at the trade deadline, Caron traded four players and 1992 fifth-round pick (Brian Loney) to Vancouver for Butcher and Dan Quinn, a small but skilled centre.

Butcher was the key player for the Blues, with Quinn added due to the Canucks hard negotiating. The Blues traded away Geoff Courtnall, Robert Dirk, Sergio Momesso, Cliff Ronning – who as a group invigorated the Canucks for a number of years and eventually helped their new team advance to the 1994 Stanley Cup Final.

The Butcher trade helped the Canucks but cost Butcher's new team dearly. Traded away such depth cost the Blues a second scoring line behind Brett Hull and Adam Oates. As a result, the trade was blamed for the Blues defeat at the hands of the Minnesota North Stars in the second round of the playoffs. (The Stars would make it all the way to the Finals). Quinn was gone from the team shortly after the playoff disappointment. The Butcher trade (together with a later lopsided deal favoring the Canucks) was regarded by media and fans as one of the top 5 heartbreakers for the St. Louis Blues.

Butcher was expected to provide leadership. He was named team captain, but a broken left foot cost him the end of the 1991-92 NHL season and the start of the playoffs.

After the Blues were eliminated, Butcher was selected to the national team for the 1992 Ice Hockey World Championships. He played three games and scored a goal. The team placed eighth.

Butcher played in the NHL All-Star Game in 1993, but as an injury replacement for Jeff Brown. The same year, Butcher scored a rare goal, the game-winner, against the Toronto Maple Leafs in Game 3 of the 1993 Norris Division Finals.

Career statistics for Butcher:

Seasons 14
Games 897
Goals 48
Assists 158
Points 206
PIM 2302

[BENNETTWOLF]

Yeah, i hated Garth............something about his face..........but he's there with guys like Dale Hunter (minus the incidents with Gord Murphy and Turgeon) in earning that ultimate compliment unique to hockey "I hate the bastid but i'd like him on my team." Or at least giving them your grudging respect.). The game is better (WAS better) for them.

I did have the pleasure of seeing Rod Langway drop Garth in a rare squabble as a Cap. Butcher was playing his role and i'm foggy if it involved a teammate or Langway directly but Rod dropped him on his butt with one right. Butcher looked chagrined and it's not even listed on DYG (roughing? it might have been gloves on)

I'd have probably loved Butcher as a Cap...............Rick Tocchet just didn't seem right, i'd invested too much in hating him.

Vaclav Varada was rather annoying. I can still see his suprise that Mark Tinordi was willing to fight in the playoffs since it was Varada's job to antagonize Sergei Gonchar. Like an unspoken agreement was being unilaterally violated.

Funny about the unique aspect of hockey. I was talking to my dad about it recently and said that Hines Ward of the NFL reminded me of that analogy but that was what was great about our sport for fans...........you might actually see your teams guy punch that smiling/smirking/borderline guy in the nose...................and you also know that it's only a matter of your team's jersey.

Bryan Marchment might not qualify............an old school guy who truly skirted that line of being dirty but was willing to defend his actions. Richard Pilon as well.

[Maggie3and Me]

BENNETTWOLF,

I have to respectfully disagree with what you said about Marchment being an old school guy, who skirted the rules. He flagrantly flaunted his not caring about rules.

Marchment would not have made it past his first season in the old days. His tactic of knee on knee hits, running smaller players and cherry picking a lot of his fights would not have been tolerated. Add to that the league suspended him 13 times in his first 12 seasons for his actions, and you might as well have put a bulls eye on him.

That’s just my opinion, but I feel his actions speak for him. Remember, in the old day they did not wear helmets and spearing and butt ending were an art form . Ask Lindsay and Mikita. Did I ever tell you about Gordie Howe’s elbows or the way he would take you into the boards?

What would have sealed the deal is the people he hurt. A lot of these guys were franchise players and some where along the line, his ticket would have punched. These are just some of the players he injured, Mike Modano, Kevin Dineen, Pavel Bure, Mike Gartner, Paul Kariya, and he also , believe it or not injured Wendel Carke.

I agree with you about him being a tough kid. I saw him in Chicago, when he was here for about three years. His second year here he had over 300 PIM. To be honest with you, I did not like him when he was with us either.

[Maggie3and Me]

BENNETTWOLF,

I could be all wrong about him BENNETT. When we got him from Winnipeg, he had only played in a handful of games. After he left us, it seemed like he changed his style.

He did play some good defense, was hard nosed, and not afraid to hit or mix it up. It is hard for me to be objective with him, as I did not like what he turned into.

If I sounded like I was angry about his being mentioned, it has to do with the fact that with all his tools and potential, he seemed to settle for less. I don't know if that is true or not. It just seemed that way to me.

After he left us, I confess to not keeping up with him a great deal. After seeing and reading about some of his antics, I lost interest.

M3M

[BENNETTWOLF]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

BENNETTWOLF,

I have to respectfully disagree with what you said about Marchment being an old school guy, who skirted the rules. He flagrantly flaunted his not caring about rules.

Marchment would not have made it past his first season in the old days. His tactic of knee on knee hits, running smaller players and cherry picking a lot of his fights would not have been tolerated. Add to that the league suspended him 13 times in his first 12 seasons for his actions, and you might as well have put a bulls eye on him.

That’s just my opinion, but I feel his actions speak for him. Remember, in the old day they did not wear helmets and spearing and butt ending were an art form . Ask Lindsay and Mikita. Did I ever tell you about Gordie Howe’s elbows or the way he would take you into the boards?

What would have sealed the deal is the people he hurt. A lot of these guys were franchise players and some where along the line, his ticket would have punched. These are just some of the players he injured, Mike Modano, Kevin Dineen, Pavel Bure, Mike Gartner, Paul Kariya, and he also , believe it or not injured Wendel Carke.

I agree with you about him being a tough kid. I saw him in Chicago, when he was here for about three years. His second year here he had over 300 PIM. To be honest with you, I did not like him when he was with us either.

I always thought he was pretty dirty too. I guess i was stretching really. It is weird, different people visualize different things with terms. Just wait for another of the annual debates on the "middleweight" division. I would have liked him for his hitting but he really did seem to look to injure people. Richard Pilon really got under people's skin deliberately with his style and mouth but did fight often. I was suprised to see him clearly beat Craig Berube recently.

The middleweight division: Some people see that as height/weight, others as non-heavyweight fighters and still others as that "gray area" between 3rd or even 2nd tier heavyweight fighters.

Steve Thomas is classic middlewight but some stretch it to include Paul Kruse or even Brad May. As a life long boxing fan, i like to muddy the waters by referring to the "cruiserweight" or light heavyweight division........f--k em if they can't take a joke

Funny, i only recall Marchment in one fight as a Hawk offhand. I was in a bar on a double date and saw Kelly Chase get the better of him in a good long go in that classic divisional rivalry.

[Maggie3and Me]

BENNETTWOLF,

Steve Thomas was one hard nosed, grinder, who seemed to play his best when he was doing the scut work. Digging in the corners and along the boards. Forcheckig and backchecking. His open ice hits.

Add to that his goals and assists, man he was something to watch.

We did to him what was all to common back then, let a good one get away.
And what we got in return for trading him and Adam Creighton, Brian Sutter and Brad Lauer, did not seem enough. Sutter oh yeah, but not Lauer.

Thanks for mentioning him, as he was a favorite of mine in his four years here.

[BENNETTWOLF]

i always had affection for Thomas because i think i saw his rookie year in the AHL (along with Todd Gill) in a heated rivalry between Baltimore and St. Catherines. Bennett Wolf took a shine to him.............and tried to put Thomas through the boards on a regular basis. Bennett was as hard hitting blueliner as i ever saw (including Stevens or Tinordi in Washington) and took delight in running the very small (Polonich, Claude Verret, Gates Orlando, Steve Tsijura 5-5), old (gray haired Yvon Lambert) or...........virtually anyone and some of his most memorable hits were on Stumpy Thomas.

It takes a lot of character to survive the AHL as not much more than a kid and those two guys were stuck in the middle of some of the most heated hockey i've ever seen.

I always thought that Steve defined "middleweight" in an old school way and was in a lot of good fights. Win, lose or draw. He's one of those gritty character guys that used to be so prevalent. Well rounded, grinding guys with leadership who also possessed a good amount of skill. It's a testament to note that he probably could have played on any line with equal aplomb.. The dinosaur that is Gary Roberts is one of the few left.

[Maggie3and Me]

BENNETT,

Good post and a good name you brought up.

Roberts is a freaking mazing. Did you see the tilt that he had the other night with a kid that not to much past being half his age.

This is truly a guy that could have played in any era of the game. When you said his name I thought of some of the hard nosed players like him. They were not quite the fighters he is, but, the Sutter boys and Thomas, were just some of the other diggers.

They certainly fun to watch. and a B*tch to play against.

Thanks for the post. Let's think about some of the old and the new and we'll post em later.

[Maggie3and Me]

Terry Ruskowski,

Since we had been talking about grinders and old style hockey players, does this guy bring any memories back.

At the time of the WHA-NHL merger the four new teams were allowed to protect two players each. The Winnipeg management dreaded having to leave Terry unprotected, but they had little choice. John Ferguson, the Winnipeg GM at that time said: "I'm not only giving up probably the best player in our league, I'm giving up the heart of our hockey club. They have a name for that. It's called rape."

Ferguson grabbed Bobby Hull in the Expansion draft from Chicago who had claimed Hull from Winnipeg only four days earlier. Ferguson knew that the Chicago crowd would love to have Hull back in Chicago, so his plan was to trade Hull for Ruskowski, but the Chicago management were not interested in such a deal and nothing happened.

Terry didn't disappoint in Chicago his first year there and led the team in both scoring and penalty minutes. He was the key on the "RPM Line" together with Rich Preston (31 goals) and Grant Mulvey (39 goals).

The RPM Line was a very close knit trio, both on and off the ice. Ruskowski and Preston had played together in both Houston and Winnipeg, and Mulvey complimented them nicely.

"Grant Mulvey set himself in a position where he could just one-time it. We worked on it a long time; just passing and one timing it. He was a goal scorer. I passed it to him and he put the biscuit in the basket as we say. Preston was great in the corners. He had very strong legs and a strong upper body. He really dug the puck out. So, it was a combination of three people doing what they do best," explained Ruskowski, who could be favorably compared to Dale Hunter.

Just 12 games into Ruskowski's NHL career, long time Chicago favourite Keith Magnuson had to retire and Terry Ruskowski was named captain of the team. This wouldn't be his first stint as a captain for an NHL team. Terry later captained Pittsburgh and Los Angeles as well which clearly shows the great leadership qualities that he had.

A sloppy skater, Ruskowski always admitted that he relied on work ethic over natural talent for his success on the ice. "When you can't rely on talent - and I'm not really a good skater, a good shooter, a good stick handler - when you can't depend on talent, you have to depend on working harder. It's my natural response, reaction; my natural instinct is to try and do the best I can, to do things right. I think I've felt that way since I was a kid."

On October 24, 1982 Terry was traded to Los Angeles where he played three seasons before signing as a free agent with Pittsburgh on October 3, 1985. He often played left wing on Mario Lemieux's line. After two good years in Pittsburgh Terry signed as a free agent with Minnesota in July 1987 to finish his career there.

Terry retired at the beginning of the 1988-89 season and finished his NHL career with 113 goals, 313 assists and 426 points 630 games. "Roscoe" added 1354 PIMs in a career where he will be remembered by all those who played with him as one of the finest leaders in pro hockey.

While with the Blackhaws, this hard nosed 5’10” 180 pound undersized center, carved out a place in the hearts of the Blackhawks fans. Not only for his scoring, but , for the type of play he brought to ice game in and game out. We only had him here for 161 games, before he was traded for Larry Goodenough and a third round pick that landed us Trent Yawney. Goodenough never played in the NHL for the Hawks.