Old Farts Thread

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Thanks and I appreciate this very much.
I remember one time you telling me things about Tim Horton. I'd be interested and I'm sure everyone else if you had some stories about the great Tim Horton. On that Rangers blog that I visit like once a week, the fellow had a great 9 minute clip of Gillies Villemure's first game as a Ranger in 1970 after he became the backup because of Sawchuk's passing!
Tim Horton was on the ice around half of the clip and you could see how good he was even though he was 40 years of age. The guy could skate, threw a few nice checks, and made a few nice outlet passes!
Shakey Walton also made an unreal move on Horton at center ice approaching the Rangers blueline! Walton is carrying the puck and Horton went to nail him with an open ice hip check and at the last second somehow Walton saw Horton and jumped over him and kept going with the puck! It was an insane move by Walton and showed his great balance and skating ability!
Tim Horton and Mike Walton!

Bj this is just a little of the writeing's in the book mentioned .

The inventory on Tim Hortons estate confirms he carried no life insurance when he died , and none of the family real estate was included as every thing was in Lori's name .
Total valuation of the estate was $675,462.45 , this included $9,750 salvage for the car he was driving in which he was killed , $464,552 in bonds , debentures, stocks and other securities , which represented his share in Tim Donut and Tim Horton Holdings .
Ron Joyce Paid Lori One Million dollars for Tim's share in the business at the time , which was over $300,000 more then it was worth , yet she thought she got ripped off ...

[BENNETTWOLF]

Here's a query on a blueliner that i never saw a lot of but always had impressive stats, combining skill and muscle, Rob Ramage. To preface (and show my semi-ignorance), wasn't ramage responsible for the death of Keith Magnuson while driving under the influence?

I guess that casts a shadow on what seemed to be an outstanding career. I wasn't that familiar with him because his career was mainly played in the western conference including an outstanding tenure in St. louis. I was always curious about him because of his blend of points and pims.

Some most impressive career #'s:

In 1044gp 139-425-564 with 2224 pims

In (about exactly one season) the playoffs: 84gp 8-42-50 with 218 pims

He broke the 20 goal plateau early in his NHL career in colorado, going 20-42-62 (193). I recall nominating him in a number crunching thread some time ago called "statistically gifted grinders". He's one of the very, very few blueliners to crack 20goals with over 150pims.

He amassed three 60 point campaigns, peaking at 66

He also broke 50 one other time and was consistently over 35 (11 times!)

He broke 200 penalty minutes twice, and also hit 193 twice more.

Going by his career totals, he averaged better than a point every two games and better than 2pims a game so his average season would be something like 9-10 goals (he broke double figures 7x), 40+ points and 165 pims.

Pretty impressive stuff especially on a consistent basis.

As a scrapper, i noted he had a very good card and was exceptionally prone to fighting guys multiple times. He's another guy that dosen't show up on a lot of fistic video. I enjoyed his two punch TKO of Brent hughes where hughes does something very odd with his wrists in the preamble, rotating them in a very unnatural way..........almost somewhat inhuman..........like they're not correctly attached.

I was always curious about how good he was as he seemed to get overshadowed. That's outstanding production and physicality for a guy who, i thought, tended to business in his own end first. I'd been holding off doing a thread on him because of my "fuzziness" on the details of the tragedy he was involved in (responsible for?) and because, on a fight site, there is a dearth of video on him.............so i didn't see too much potential for a thread.

So.............."old farts" is about perfect...............per usual

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

Here's a query on a blueliner that i never saw a lot of but always had impressive stats, combining skill and muscle, Rob Ramage. To preface (and show my semi-ignorance), wasn't ramage responsible for the death of Keith Magnuson while driving under the influence?

I guess that casts a shadow on what seemed to be an outstanding career. I wasn't that familiar with him because his career was mainly played in the western conference including an outstanding tenure in St. louis. I was always curious about him because of his blend of points and pims.

Some most impressive career #'s:

In 1044gp 139-425-564 with 2224 pims

In (about exactly one season) the playoffs: 84gp 8-42-50 with 218 pims

He broke the 20 goal plateau early in his NHL career in colorado, going 20-42-62 (193). I recall nominating him in a number crunching thread some time ago called "statistically gifted grinders". He's one of the very, very few blueliners to crack 20goals with over 150pims.

He amassed three 60 point campaigns, peaking at 66

He also broke 50 one other time and was consistently over 35 (11 times!)

He broke 200 penalty minutes twice, and also hit 193 twice more.

Going by his career totals, he averaged better than a point every two games and better than 2pims a game so his average season would be something like 9-10 goals (he broke double figures 7x), 40+ points and 165 pims.

Pretty impressive stuff especially on a consistent basis.

As a scrapper, i noted he had a very good card and was exceptionally prone to fighting guys multiple times. He's another guy that dosen't show up on a lot of fistic video. I enjoyed his two punch TKO of Brent hughes where hughes does something very odd with his wrists in the preamble, rotating them in a very unnatural way..........almost somewhat inhuman..........like they're not correctly attached.

I was always curious about how good he was as he seemed to get overshadowed. That's outstanding production and physicality for a guy who, i thought, tended to business in his own end first. I'd been holding off doing a thread on him because of my "fuzziness" on the details of the tragedy he was involved in (responsible for?) and because, on a fight site, there is a dearth of video on him.............so i didn't see too much potential for a thread.

So.............."old farts" is about perfect...............per usual

Rob Ramage was found guilty of all five charges against him and was sentenced to four years in prison on January 7/08 , was released on bail the same day as he has appealed the sentence , I haven't heard anything else on the appeal .

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Thanks and I appreciate this very much.
I remember one time you telling me things about Tim Horton. I'd be interested and I'm sure everyone else if you had some stories about the great Tim Horton. On that Rangers blog that I visit like once a week, the fellow had a great 9 minute clip of Gillies Villemure's first game as a Ranger in 1970 after he became the backup because of Sawchuk's passing!
Tim Horton was on the ice around half of the clip and you could see how good he was even though he was 40 years of age. The guy could skate, threw a few nice checks, and made a few nice outlet passes!
Shakey Walton also made an unreal move on Horton at center ice approaching the Rangers blueline! Walton is carrying the puck and Horton went to nail him with an open ice hip check and at the last second somehow Walton saw Horton and jumped over him and kept going with the puck! It was an insane move by Walton and showed his great balance and skating ability!
Tim Horton and Mike Walton!

BJ, Forgive me if you had read a previous post of mine, but my dad went to ST. Micheals Academy with Tim Horton , my Dad roomed with Dave Keon as well. I remember him telling me that Horton was as blind as a bat...a rarely attended class. He was such a star hockey player, nobody cared. He also said Horton was incredibly strong and it was the first time I heard the expression " washboard stomach" describing Horton flat stomach.
Again I had posted several times that my dad had his career in hockey end at the hands of Horton( in a drunken late night scrimmage sans equipement).A busted shoulder and elbow did the trick. I think my dad always held a great amount of resentment, in fact when Horton died my dad didn't even go to his funeral.

Rob Ramage, didn't like him at all. He was a thorn in the side of the Hawks, he was very strong, a very good defender, all around great d-man. Think Scott Stevens . What I hated most about him ...HE WAS A HUGE HUGGER. Never liked to trade punches.... he made Secord look like PJ Stock !!

[canuckfan]

Ramage dropped a young Scott Mellanby with a quick punch back in 1987 or '88 as well, didn't he? Seemed like a guy, as strong as an oxe, who had a temper you didn't want to rile up.

During the 1989 playoffs, I kept getting Ramage, Jamie Macoun, and Ric Nattress mixed up because all three defensemen looked the same and had similar, bushy mustaches. I think I remember referring to the three of them as the beaverfaces, or something like that. Put those guys together with a grizzly Lanny McDonald and you couldn't charge enough for those kind of mustache rides.

The thing I recall about the later portion of his career was that after every year he seemed to be playing with a different team. Toronto, then Minnesota, Tampa, Montreal, Philly - I was always interested to see where Ramage would end up next!

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by battleship25

BJ, Forgive me if you had read a previous post of mine, but my dad went to ST. Micheals Academy with Tim Horton , my Dad roomed with Dave Keon as well. I remember him telling me that Horton was as blind as a bat...a rarely attended class. He was such a star hockey player, nobody cared. He also said Horton was incredibly strong and it was the first time I heard the expression " washboard stomach" describing Horton flat stomach.
Again I had posted several times that my dad had his career in hockey end at the hands of Horton( in a drunken late night scrimmage sans equipement).A busted shoulder and elbow did the trick. I think my dad always held a great amount of resentment, in fact when Horton died my dad didn't even go to his funeral.

Rob Ramage, didn't like him at all. He was a thorn in the side of the Hawks, he was very strong, a very good defender, all around great d-man. Think Scott Stevens . What I hated most about him ...HE WAS A HUGE HUGGER. Never liked to trade punches.... he made Secord look like PJ Stock !!

battleship ; Tim Horton's feats of strength are the things legends are made of ..
In one of the books I have (dont recall who it was that wrote it ) the author told a story of one feat he performed as a joke .
They had some of the big cement blocks used to block off streets when they were going to do some road work at the side of the street in one of the cities they were playing in . Horton took the blocks and put them in the center of the street by himself , they have to weigh a ton each but it didn't even faze him or so the storey goes .
Dave Keon said once Tim used to sit reading and do arm curls with 100lb weights like it was 10 lbs , his wrist exercise was to tie a 50lb weight to a barbell hold it out at arms length and roll it up and down 100 times ,
Try holding five pounds of sugar at arms length for 5 minutes out in front of you just to find out if you can do it in one hand ,

The thing that makes all the stories of his feats of strength hard to beleive is his "SIZE" , He was 5-10 180lbs !!!!!

[fish7]

Originally Posted by battleship25

Rob Ramage, didn't like him at all. He was a thorn in the side of the Hawks, he was very strong, a very good defender, all around great d-man. Think Scott Stevens . What I hated most about him ...HE WAS A HUGE HUGGER. Never liked to trade punches.... he made Secord look like PJ Stock !!

I saw a lot of Ramage in StL, he was extremely frustrating to watch. He had so much talent but he made major bonehead plays. He consistently would fire breakout passes just by wide open wingers for icing calls. My buddies still refer to similar plays in today's game as a "Ramage." I used to cringe when he would drop the gloves and hug it out with someone he should have had a good fight with. That said, he must have been a great team mate as he was captain for several of the teams he was on. He always has had a great reputation here.

It was nice a few years after the Blues traded Ramage for Brett Hull, that we were able to see a dominant defenseman play here. I was lucky enough to have a great seat in the press box for every home game that Scott Stevens played here. He was such a huge step above what we had been used to with Ramage. I am sure old Caps fans and Devils fans can remember that second before a huge hit where you could just tell he was going to nail someone. I have never seen anyone else move laterally into another player the way Stevens would explode into whoever he hit.
It

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by fish7

I saw a lot of Ramage in StL, he was extremely frustrating to watch. He had so much talent but he made major bonehead plays. He consistently would fire breakout passes just by wide open wingers for icing calls. My buddies still refer to similar plays in today's game as a "Ramage." I used to cringe when he would drop the gloves and hug it out with someone he should have had a good fight with. That said, he must have been a great team mate as he was captain for several of the teams he was on. He always has had a great reputation here.

It was nice a few years after the Blues traded Ramage for Brett Hull, that we were able to see a dominant defenseman play here. I was lucky enough to have a great seat in the press box for every home game that Scott Stevens played here. He was such a huge step above what we had been used to with Ramage. I am sure old Caps fans and Devils fans can remember that second before a huge hit where you could just tell he was going to nail someone. I have never seen anyone else move laterally into another player the way Stevens would explode into whoever he hit.
It

One of Rob Ramage's most embarrassing moments happened in his rookie season .
In a game against the Islanders he was playing for the Colorado Rockies , the team that had drafted him first overall , a delayed penalty had been called , The Colorado goaltender had made his way to the bench , the puck had deflected of Billy Smith to the corner , Rob chased it down and made a blind pass to the blue line , their was no-one their to accept the pass , the puck sailed all the way down the ice and into the Rockies net , Smith was the last player to touch the puck , he became the first goaltender ever to be awarded a goal scored in an NHL game .

When you talk about his blind passes you are right on the money , he just never lost the habit he picked up in junior playing for his home town London Knights ..

[Maggie3and Me]

On a cold February night in 1977, at the old Chicago Stadium, Stan Mikita in his 19th season, in his 1,221 game, became only the 8th player in NHL history to record 500 goals. It was on the 27th of February when Mikita beat Cesare Maniago of the Vancouver Canucks. It was one of the few bright spots of a dull and dreary season.

Below are listed the 7 players who accomplished the task before Stan, and how many games it took them to notch their 500th and the year they did it.

Maurice Richard - 863 - 1957
Gordie Howe - 1,045 - 1962
Bobby Hull - 861 - 1970
Jean Beliveau - 1,101 - 1971
Frank Mahovlich - 1,105 - 1973
Phil Esposito - 803 - 1974
John Buyck - 1,370 - 1975

Richard’s 500th came in 1957 and no one before him had ever achieved this milestone. The league, as the National Hockey League has been in existence since 1917. It took 40 years for the first player to score 500 goals

To show how the game has changed and the emphasis has been put on scoring, since 1977, when Mikita recorded his 500th, 33 players have recorded 500 goals in the 31 years since.

The last was Kieth Tkachuk in 2008, playing in his 1,055th game.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

On a cold February night in 1977, at the old Chicago Stadium, Stan Mikita in his 19th season, in his 1,221 game, became only the 8th player in NHL history to record 500 goals. It was on the 27th of February when Mikita beat Cesare Maniago of the Vancouver Canucks. It was one of the few bright spots of a dull and dreary season.

Below are listed the 7 players who accomplished the task before Stan, and how many games it took them to notch their 500th and the year they did it.

Maurice Richard - 863 - 1957
Gordie Howe - 1,045 - 1962
Bobby Hull - 861 - 1970
Jean Beliveau - 1,101 - 1971
Frank Mahovlich - 1,105 - 1973
Phil Esposito - 803 - 1974
John Buyck - 1,370 - 1975

Richard’s 500th came in 1957 and no one before him had ever achieved this milestone. The league, as the National Hockey League has been in existence since 1917. It took 40 years for the first player to score 500 goals

To show how the game has changed and the emphasis has been put on scoring, since 1977, when Mikita recorded his 500th, 33 players have recorded 500 goals in the 31 years since.

The last was Kieth Tkachuk in 2008, playing in his 1,055th game.

The number of games played each season has a lot to do with the escalation of players season scoring records .
In 1917-18 the first year of the NHL they played 14 games in the first half of a split season , 8 games in the second half for a total of 22 games .
By the time 1926-27 rolled around they were playing 44 games in the regular season , in 1932-34 they upped it to 48 games and again in 1942-43 to 50 games , it was the 1944-45 season that Maurice Richard scored his historic 50 goals in 50 games .
in 1946-47 they had upped the games played again to 60 games per season and in 1949-50 they did it again by another 10 games to 70 per season where it remained until the 1967-68 season when added 4 games to make it a 74 game season 68-69 they added 4 more games for a 78 game schedule were it remained until the 1974-75 season when they made it an 80 game season , they stopped their for the next 18 seasons then upped it up to 84 games , in 1995-96 they removed two games from the season back to 82 games were it remains to this day
From the 42-43 season (50 games) they have added 32 games to the season , players are playing on average 16 to 20 seasons when back when they played the rough and tumble hockey we all talk about a player was done in 8 to 12 years , the conditioning , salaries , equipment has made it possible for players to make hockey their lifetime career , back as early as the 60-70 era of hockey only the elite made enough money to live off hockey , most had to work in the off season just to make ends meet .
It became easy for elite players to score 500 or more goals in the 15-20 seasons they played , they were always protected as the league grew into the big money business it has become , we see it every day , the Crosby's Ovechkin's of the game today are tomorrows 500 goal scorers , we the old timers have seen the game change from what we used call the good old days to the high tech game of today were we see a 500 goal scorer retire every year ..

Sorry Guys for the "RANT" !!!!

[Lars24]

Figured I would chime in on Ramage I never really thought he was much of a fighter. But really he never was called on the be a main HW. From what I recall the majority of his fights were from action plays - clearing the front of the net and playing physical on the boards etc. He was more of a physical presence taking the body then dropping the gloves.

I thought he was a good, steady Dman and he was a big part of that Flames team that won the cup in 89. He was not a flashy type player, but his strengths - tough play in front of his net, and leadership made him a good asset for the teams he played on. I thought he also played well late in his carrer with the Leafs and wore the "C". Not the best fighter, and I agree with Fish, he was not a super smooth passer and had "stonehands" it seemed sometimes. But he would protect his teammates and was a good team guy from what I recall.

[peacemaker]

I never realized this until just now, but with Rob Ramage and Barry Beck, the Colorado Rockies had the foundation for a great young defence for years to come.

Those were 2 very good guys to build your defence around.

Instead they traded Beck for Lanny, and after 2 seasons moved Lanny for Don Lever (who had 2 peoductive NHL seasons left in him) and Bobby MacMillan (who put up a 50 point season that yr, but was out of the league a couple years later).
McDonald on the other hand continued to be productive for a few more seasons (put up 66 goals a couple years later).

You could debate the benefit of trading a young cornerstone type d-man (Beck) for an aging superstar (borderline superstar is probably more accurate) in Lanny McDonald...

But to flip Lanny for a couple guys who were obviously near the end of their careers, and were just above average guys, is just plain stupid.
After 2 years, the Rockies essentially made that trade Lever and MacMillan for Barry Beck.

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by fansince65

The number of games played each season has a lot to do with the escalation of players season scoring records .
In 1917-18 the first year of the NHL they played 14 games in the first half of a split season , 8 games in the second half for a total of 22 games .
By the time 1926-27 rolled around they were playing 44 games in the regular season , in 1932-34 they upped it to 48 games and again in 1942-43 to 50 games , it was the 1944-45 season that Maurice Richard scored his historic 50 goals in 50 games .
in 1946-47 they had upped the games played again to 60 games per season and in 1949-50 they did it again by another 10 games to 70 per season where it remained until the 1967-68 season when added 4 games to make it a 74 game season 68-69 they added 4 more games for a 78 game schedule were it remained until the 1974-75 season when they made it an 80 game season , they stopped their for the next 18 seasons then upped it up to 84 games , in 1995-96 they removed two games from the season back to 82 games were it remains to this day
From the 42-43 season (50 games) they have added 32 games to the season , players are playing on average 16 to 20 seasons when back when they played the rough and tumble hockey we all talk about a player was done in 8 to 12 years , the conditioning , salaries , equipment has made it possible for players to make hockey their lifetime career , back as early as the 60-70 era of hockey only the elite made enough money to live off hockey , most had to work in the off season just to make ends meet .
It became easy for elite players to score 500 or more goals in the 15-20 seasons they played , they were always protected as the league grew into the big money business it has become , we see it every day , the Crosby's Ovechkin's of the game today are tomorrows 500 goal scorers , we the old timers have seen the game change from what we used call the good old days to the high tech game of today were we see a 500 goal scorer retire every year ..

Sorry Guys for the "RANT" !!!!

Good points all, fan.

Another thing you have to look at is the amount of teams in the league.

In the beginning, 1917, until 1942, the league fluctuated to as many as 10 teams and as few as five. It was 1942 when the Original Six came to being and as we know it, lasting until 1967.

With the tripling of the size of the league in the next 10 years, scoring was up dramatically. All of the things we have mentioned from the Summit Series to the "Fighting Rules" have affected scoring.

The moving of the lines on the ice, the restrictions of goalies playing the puck behind the net, have all had an effect on the speed of the game. Couple this with the restrictions put on defensive styles of play and you can see how the game has opened up.

In my opinion, the three biggest things that have put more of an emphasis on the wide open offensive game we have are;

1. Expansion - When the league doubled, you still had enough top line goalies to man the 12 teams. For the most part, back up goalies were just a notch below starting goalies in the old O6. As expansion increased, you no longer had top tier goalies on every team. The amount of top blue liners from 1 to 6 also were thinned to staff the new teams.

2. The Summit Series - This changed the way for the game was played. The so called Eurofication of the league coincided with the second and later rounds of expansion. This also saw the age of specialization in the league.

3. Media - With the advent the larger television contracts, ultimately leading up to National exposure in the U.S., people wanted to see action. The opening up of the game and Wayne Gretzky were a marriage made in heaven. One that did not escape notice of the marketing guru's or the Board of Governors.

Just an opinion.

[BrianTheAdsFan]

Originally Posted by peacemaker

I never realized this until just now, but with Rob Ramage and Barry Beck, the Colorado Rockies had the foundation for a great young defence for years to come.

Those were 2 very good guys to build your defence around.

Instead they traded Beck for Lanny, and after 2 seasons moved Lanny for Don Lever (who had 2 peoductive NHL seasons left in him) and Bobby MacMillan (who put up a 50 point season that yr, but was out of the league a couple years later).
McDonald on the other hand continued to be productive for a few more seasons (put up 66 goals a couple years later).

You could debate the benefit of trading a young cornerstone type d-man (Beck) for an aging superstar (borderline superstar is probably more accurate) in Lanny McDonald...

But to flip Lanny for a couple guys who were obviously near the end of their careers, and were just above average guys, is just plain stupid.
After 2 years, the Rockies essentially made that trade Lever and MacMillan for Barry Beck.

A little off the topic, but I notcied Rob Ramage mentioned. Rob's son John currently is a freshman playing defense for the Wisconsin Badgers. A gritty kid who has a scoring touch. A nice looking player.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by BrianTheAdsFan

A little off the topic, but I notcied Rob Ramage mentioned. Rob's son John currently is a freshman playing defense for the Wisconsin Badgers. A gritty kid who has a scoring touch. A nice looking player.

I think John Ramage is playing for team USA in the upcoming World Junior tourney over Christmas , it will give us fans of junior hockey a chance to get a look at him in the elite company of the best Junior players in the world today ..