Old Farts Thread

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Bigjack,

You used to have a Bob Baun, Reg Fleming, Ted Lindsay, or a Ferguson type player, who were all around players. They had to be. There was not the money in hockey then as there is now. Teams back then did not have the luxury of having a designated fighter.

Also, the Hull's,Beliveau's, Howe's, Mikita's, and so on, all had to know how to fight to stay in the league.

The game has evolved bigjack. As much as the foreign players and the rules changes, money has had the most effect in changing hockey. If you did not have the big money you would not have the other two.

Because owners and the conglomerates who pay for stadium namings don't want their money players, their drawing cards injured. They have to keep them form being run, or getting into a fight. They are the marquis players for the league as well.

The good old days will remain just that. The hockey was good and we are getting old. I don't agree with it jack, but, from a business standpoint it makes sense.

Some of the new heavy weights aren't as bad as we make them out and some are worse. The only constant is that we have to change with the game too jack, or else it will pass us by.

By the way, I know he's a jerk but I watched Avery for over 80 games as a Ranger and he's a 1970's player. The guy isn't some huge guy that we all read about today but a 5'10", 185lb player and yet he hits, fights, scores, and has some decent skills. This is the type of guy that I have written about many times here that we knew and was always told no that a 180 lb guy could never play today and would have no impact and couldn't compete and yet what an impact that Avery had on the Rangers!
Size means squat, it's an ability to skate mixed with some hands and hockey sense and that guy could play in any era!
Sean Avery is a throwback player!

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

By the way, I know he's a jerk but I watched Avery for over 80 games as a Ranger and he's a 1970's player. The guy isn't some huge guy that we all read about today but a 5'10", 185lb player and yet he hits, fights, scores, and has some decent skills. This is the type of guy that I have written about many times here that we knew and was always told no that a 180 lb guy could never play today and would have no impact and couldn't compete and yet what an impact that Avery had on the Rangers!
Size means squat, it's an ability to skate mixed with some hands and hockey sense and that guy could play in any era!
Sean Avery is a throwback player!

big jack : They can call Avery every thing they want , "jerk/a-hole/pervert/crazy/nut case/physico/a cancer/ and they all fit , he earned every one ..
When PPL say he cant play the game is just wrong !!! He is the one player that every team needs !!
He is that get in your face player every one else , even his own team-mates hate ..
His own team-mates hate him because he has the ball$ to do the dirty work they don't want and will not do , thus showing them up as wussies ...
Every other player hates him because he is always in their face , trying to get them off their game any way he can !!!

I "HATE" the guy !!! But I hope the Bruins are in the bidding for his services , that throw back in your face agitator is the only thing missing to make the Bruins a legit contender for the CUP .... IMHO .....

[Maggie3and Me]

Enforcer/Skaters

Bigjack,

I went thru some of the teams, right of the top of my head and came up with these players.
All are not great scorers, Matt Walker with only 8 assists, is one. He plays 17-23 minutes a game, has only 58 PIM, but, has had 8 fights, most against the big boys. This type of player could have played back in the day. Here are some others. This is not a complete list as I am not familiar with every team in the league.

I went through the first four team alphabetically and came up with these names. I am not saying these are the best or the only ones. Also, I did leave of Parros and Peters. Parros, because of ice time, and Peters because he has only been in 26 games this year. If your player is left off don’t flame, just bring him up. You must keep in mind he has to do more than fight. Skating, playing a position, playing on power play, regular skating shifts are what I tried to base this on, as this is what players did back in the day that bigjack is talking about.

To avoid any controversy, players are listed alphabetically.

Colby Armstrong
Zdeno Chara
Ryan Getzlaf
Milan Lucic
Adam Mair
Steve Montador
Shawn Thornton
Matt Walker

Bigjack, there are more players out there when you take a closer look. I’m not saying they would be All Stars, but most of these fellows could play a good game.

[FitzG]

I never tried too hard to meet him (why bother when you got Flaman around the corner) but he did send me one picture you'll get a kick out of when I find it.

Originally Posted by bigjack

Wow cool Parker MacDonald is your relative. He was very successful coaching in New Haven for the Rangers in the late 1970's and I remember him coaching the North Stars during Gump Worsley's last season!

[canuck2]

Avery reminds me a bit of Ken linseman. Boy did he piss people off. Great skater but didnt fight as much as Avery.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by canuck2

Avery reminds me a bit of Ken linseman. Boy did he piss people off. Great skater but didnt fight as much as Avery.

Dino Ciccarelli was to me the most successful "pest" in the history of the game !!!

His stats prove that if you are willing to get down and dirty it can pay off , 608 goals , 592 assists , 1200 points for one of the best pests in history !!!!!

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by fansince65

Dino Ciccarelli was to me the most successful "pest" in the history of the game !!!

His stats prove that if you are willing to get down and dirty it can pay off , 608 goals , 592 assists , 1200 points for one of the best pests in history !!!!!

I cringe at the name of that SOB. I Spent to many years watching that gutless wonder get away with cheap shots and deliberately hurting people.

Normally you could say, Yeah but wouldn't you love to have a guy like a Linseman, an Avery,or a Lindsay on your team. To me, Sissy, made Claude Lemieux look like Mr. Clean. I would not have him on my team.

He would start all kinds trouble, including brawls and then not be a combatant. Funny thing is I have seen him fight earlier in his career and he was not a bad fighter. In one brawl against the Hawks, after the linesman got him out of getting his ass beat, he skated around the outside of the scrum. Then he would make like he was coming into the action, only to skate away, leaving his teammates to handle the dust ups this caused.

I do believe that some of my resentment of him comes from his off ice activities. His exposing himself on several occasions, and his involvement in some problems with teammates, make me not respect him.

You are right fan, he did have a lot of points. He did a great job as an instigator and stirring the pot. He had a knack of getting under every ones skin, not just the Hawks. It was not so much what he did, it was the way he did it. Let me give you some examples.

Quote:

Ciccarelli's career featured several controversial moments, both on and off the ice. In 1987 he pleaded guilty to indecent exposure and received probation. Then on January 6, 1988, in a game played at Maple Leaf Gardens, Ciccarelli attacked Maple Leafs defenceman Luke Richardson with his stick. As a result of this incident, Ciccarelli was convicted of assault, fined $1000, and sentenced to one day in jail.

After retiring, Ciccarelli allegedly had several physical altercations with members of the media. Some have criticized the Hockey Hall of Fame for focusing on issues other than hockey for his exclusion, but others point out that the induction committee has maintained such integrity in order to avoid tarnishing such an honour.

fan, these are just some of the reasons he is not in th Hall, even with those kind of numbers.

[fansince65]

M3M : They cant put players like Linsman/Ciccarelli/Claud Lemieux in the hall of fame !!
No matter how many points they have , that type of player just doesn't belong , unless they make a special category for the "agitator" of the decade , that's the only way the Avery's and all the other pests will ever get to the HHOF , and then they would have to put them in a separate room , they just dont belong with the real stars of the game ..

But it would be fun just to see how many they would put in and just who would be the first one ...

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

big jack : They can call Avery every thing they want , "jerk/a-hole/pervert/crazy/nut case/physico/a cancer/ and they all fit , he earned every one ..
When PPL say he cant play the game is just wrong !!! He is the one player that every team needs !!
He is that get in your face player every one else , even his own team-mates hate ..
His own team-mates hate him because he has the ball$ to do the dirty work they don't want and will not do , thus showing them up as wussies ...
Every other player hates him because he is always in their face , trying to get them off their game any way he can !!!

I "HATE" the guy !!! But I hope the Bruins are in the bidding for his services , that throw back in your face agitator is the only thing missing to make the Bruins a legit contender for the CUP .... IMHO .....

You're right! If in the 1970's the Rangers could have acquired a Clarke, Cashman, Trottier, Potvin to name a few, I would of found a way to love them in about a minute. To say anything else would be a massive lie.
There was no guy hated more by Ranger fans than Turk Sanderson and yet we loved him in 1974/75 and we hated Espo and all did the funky chicken when Ronnie Harris ripped up his knee in game 2 of the 1973 playoffs and yet we embraced Espo!
That is point one!
Point two is rat bastids with some skills are so valuable and always will be and are needed! It's hockey and grit and snarl is needed!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Enforcer/Skaters

Bigjack,

I went thru some of the teams, right of the top of my head and came up with these players.
All are not great scorers, Matt Walker with only 8 assists, is one. He plays 17-23 minutes a game, has only 58 PIM, but, has had 8 fights, most against the big boys. This type of player could have played back in the day. Here are some others. This is not a complete list as I am not familiar with every team in the league.

I went through the first four team alphabetically and came up with these names. I am not saying these are the best or the only ones. Also, I did leave of Parros and Peters. Parros, because of ice time, and Peters because he has only been in 26 games this year. If your player is left off don’t flame, just bring him up. You must keep in mind he has to do more than fight. Skating, playing a position, playing on power play, regular skating shifts are what I tried to base this on, as this is what players did back in the day that bigjack is talking about.

To avoid any controversy, players are listed alphabetically.

Colby Armstrong
Zdeno Chara
Ryan Getzlaf
Milan Lucic
Adam Mair
Steve Montador
Shawn Thornton
Matt Walker

Bigjack, there are more players out there when you take a closer look. I’m not saying they would be All Stars, but most of these fellows could play a good game.

You are very kind! I'm joking of course. Guys like: Pronger, Iginla, Phaneuf, Morrow, Richards, Upshall, Neil, Bertuzzi are some guys that come to mind that are throwback players and of course the old guys like: Roberts and Shanahan are throwback players! These type of players are so vital to a teams success!
Ovechkin is a throwback player to me! A warrior who hits and hits hard and plays on the edge. Do I wish that he didn't wear a shield and dropped the mitts once in a while, sure but he is one gritty bastid!
Get the idea recently that I love Ovechkin's game? I love Richards on the Flyers! A real rat bastid with skills and what isn't to like about that? Iginla another great player who isn't afraid to get his nose dirty! There are guys out there who are clearly old school type players but not nearly enough. Instead we get jackoffs like that sh*thead Ruutu with his shield! What a scumbag he is?

[hockey doc]

Originally Posted by fansince65

Dino Ciccarelli was to me the most successful "pest" in the history of the game !!!

His stats prove that if you are willing to get down and dirty it can pay off , 608 goals , 592 assists , 1200 points for one of the best pests in history !!!!!

Totally agree with Ciccarelli. 2nd place might go to Dale Hunter, a no good rotten bastard that posted good numbers. How many times did Hunter get suspended for trying to end somebodys career with a cheap shot? He was brutal.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

M3M : They cant put players like Linsman/Ciccarelli/Claud Lemieux in the hall of fame !!
No matter how many points they have , that type of player just doesn't belong , unless they make a special category for the "agitator" of the decade , that's the only way the Avery's and all the other pests will ever get to the HHOF , and then they would have to put them in a separate room , they just dont belong with the real stars of the game ..

But it would be fun just to see how many they would put in and just who would be the first one ...

Ciccarelli scored over 600 goals if I remember so he's a HOF player but not Lemieux or that sh*thead Linseman who I still hate and would love to deck! Drop the stick Rat, drop the stick!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

Dino Ciccarelli was to me the most successful "pest" in the history of the game !!!

His stats prove that if you are willing to get down and dirty it can pay off , 608 goals , 592 assists , 1200 points for one of the best pests in history !!!!!

Sorry I didn't see your numbers but this guy had a hell of a career like a Pat Verbeek. I am still mad at Neil Smith for not resigning Verbeek with the Rangers. This guy fit like a glove with Messier and Graves and played great hockey with the Rangers and Smith let him walk for nothing. They never replaced Gartner's 40 goals every year and they never replaced Verbeek's 40 goals and 150 penalty minutes.
I hated Verbeek as a Devil and loved him as a Ranger so there is another perfect example of a guy you hate and later love!
Pat Verbeek was great as a Ranger!

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Ciccarelli scored over 600 goals if I remember so he's a HOF player but not Lemieux or that sh*thead Linseman who I still hate and would love to deck! Drop the stick Rat, drop the stick!

Ciccarelli has HOF numbers all over them , his conduct on and off the ice is what will keep him out ..
Charged with assault and indecent exposure numerous times is not the image the HOF wants to induct ..

The press in Toronto would have a field day with that or should I say field "month" ...

[Maggie3and Me]

Since the topic of pests came up, I couldn't sleep last night so I went searching for information. This should explain what a pest is and who they are in todays game.

Then I stumbled across the Legends list of the TOP 10 Alltime.

NHL Pests

Quote:
Encyclopedia > Pest (hockey)
In ice hockey, a pest is a type of player who attempts to annoy, anger, or distract opposing players in order to reduce their effectiveness or cause them to take a penalty. Pests are also sometimes referred to as "agitators".
Pests can employ legal, illegal, or borderline tactics to accomplish their goals. Some common tactics include trash talk or slashing and hooking while referees are not looking. Also, they may employ the tactic of goading opponents into a fight but then backing off in order to draw a penalty against the opponent. Some pests may not only use these tactics against opposing skaters, but opposing goaltenders as well.

Quote:

Fans may disagree about which players are pests, particularly when the player in question is on a favorite team. However, these players are sometimes called pests:
• Sean Avery
• Matthew Barnaby
• Alexandre Burrows
• Dino Ciccarelli
• Matt Cooke
• Dan Hinote
• Tomas Holmström
• Bob Kelly
• Ian Laperriere
• Kirk Maltby
• Tyson Nash
• Ville Nieminen
• Esa Tikkanen
• Darius Kasparaitis
•
Quote:
• For all his best efforts, Sean Avery has yet to do anything noteworthy, other than date Elisha Cuthbert. Avery can't wave his stick as the game's true best pests of all time:

1.Claude Lemieux. I think Avery's game, both in terms as an incessant needler and rugged forward, best resembles dirty Claude Lemieux's. But Avery can't wave his stick in the face of what Claude accomplished: Three Stanley Cups, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy, 19 playoff game winning goals and five 30+ goal seasons. Avery doesn't even come close.

2. Bobby Clarke. Years after retiring there was plenty of people who believed Clarke was still the biggest pest in the NHL (hello Mr. and Mrs. Lindros!). Though he was one of the dirtiest players of the 1970s, he generally escapes "best pests" threads because he was such a great player. He is a Hall of Famer after all.

3. Theoren Fleury. Before he reached the NHL, Theoren Fleury was at the centre of one of the most controversial moments in World Junior history: “The Punch-Up in Piestany.” He never changed his ways in the NHL, and, personal demons aside, was incredibly successful. 1088 points, 1 Stanley Cup, 1 Olympic gold medal.

4. Esa Tikkanen. "The Grate One" was smart enough to play left wing with the real "Great One," something that Wayne Gretzky always lacked. When 99 went to Hollywood, this hard driving Finn became Gretzky's most effective shadow. "Tik" was also an Olympian and 5 time Stanley Cup champion. He should have won a Selke trophy too.

5. Dale Hunter. This guy was relentless. And he crossed the line on a few occasions. But he was very much considered to be the leader of both the 1980s Quebec Nordiques and 1990s Washington Capitals. He scored 1020 points in the NHL.

6.Ken Linseman. "The Rat." His nickname says it all, although it originally referred to his looks more so than his play. It's easy to forget that, considering he made a living making sure to get in the first and last shots while distracting his opponent up and down the ice. Linseman's antics often resulted in only the retaliatory infraction being called, further incensing his targets -- who often spent the rest of the game preoccupied with trying to get even. He also had 807 points in 860 games.

7. Tony Leswick. Mighty Mouse was the best pest of the Original Six. He left a lot of hard feelings on a nightly basis with both Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe. The 5'7" Leswick never backed down, and blanketed both with great efficiency.

8. Stan Mikita. One of the greatest players of all time and another Hall of Famer, Mikita started his career establishing himself as one of the dirtiest players in the game. But after his daughter questioned his style of play, Mikita vowed to clean up his act and did just that by registering only six minor penalties in 1966-67. He would be honored with the first of two consecutive Byng trophies for gentlemanly play.

9. Tiger Williams. The NHL's all time penalty minute leader. He may not have been the best fighter, but he never backed down. He scored 35 goals and went to the All Star game one year, too.

10. Pat Verbeek. He wasn't called the Little Ball of Hate because he topped 1,000 career points and 500 career goals. But he did, including 8 seasons of at least 30 goals.

Point being, Mr. Avery, you have to do a hell of a lot more than agitate before you're going to be considered as the best pest of all time.
•
• Posted by Joe Pelletier at 8:06 PM