Old Farts Thread

[canuckfan]

Bure was a thing of beauty. Players like him were rare to begin with, and since he's retired only Ovechkin has really even come close to reminding me of Bure's talent.

I remember his first game with the Canucks, against the Jets, I believe. It was a long anticipated debut, and I remember listening to the game on the radio. He didn't score any goals, but he had some fantastic rushes that hinted at all the great things to come, and I had never heard Canuck broadcaster Jim Robson 's voice like that before - the excitement and eager tone he raised whenever Bure touched the puck always had me at the edge of my seat. But he truly was an amazing talent, our first true superstar - and he could be a mean little bastard too!

His relationship with Odjick was pretty special. Two guys, from different backgrounds, heritage, talents, etc - such an odd couple, but they got along so well, on and off the ice. One year Odjick scored 16 goals, and I bet most of them were assisted by Bure. Those were definitley glory years for the Canucks franchise.

Its a shame the way things ended with Bure and the Canucks - the last 3-4 years he spent in Vancouver seemed kind of tense, player salaries were rising, the team was brutal, and Bure said on numerous times how he hated all the attention and longed for more privacy. It seemed destined that things would end the way they did - I was hoping to see him during the Linden retirement ceremony, but no go, and I wonder if we'll ever get a chance to see him in Vancouver ever again.

Do I think he's HHOF material - I'd like to think so. The guy was a pure talent, scored some of the most amazing goals ever seen, and posted some strong numbers. He was a huge part of that '94 Canuck team that was 1 goal away from winning a cup. I'd like to see it happen one day, and hopefully, further down the line, it will.

[bigjack]

I just looked at Bure as a Ranger and then compared him to a HOF player who I believe has no business being in the HOF.

Bure on one leg as a Ranger played 51 games and scored 31 goals and 50 points!
Not bad!
Now for his career he scored 437 goals and 779 points that is:

82 games-51 goals and 91 points!

Clark Gillies played in 958 games and scored 319 goals and 697 points that is:

82 games-27 goals and 59 points!

51 goals and 91 points
vs
27 goals and 59 points

Why is Clark Gillies in the HOF?

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by bigjack

I just looked at Bure as a Ranger and then compared him to a HOF player who I believe has no business being in the HOF.

Bure on one leg as a Ranger played 51 games and scored 31 goals and 50 points!
Not bad!
Now for his career he scored 437 goals and 779 points that is:

82 games-51 goals and 91 points!

Clark Gillies played in 958 games and scored 319 goals and 697 points that is:

82 games-27 goals and 59 points!

51 goals and 91 points
vs
27 goals and 59 points

Why is Clark Gillies in the HOF?

BJ you asked "why is Clark Gillies in the HHOF" ??

Could it be the fact he has 4 Stanley Cup Rings ?? Just wondering if that had anything to go with it ..

Bure made it to the playoff a grand total of 5 times and was a none factor in 4 of them , not the best stats for a HOF nomination ...

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by fansince65

BJ you asked "why is Clark Gillies in the HHOF" ??

Could it be the fact he has 4 Stanley Cup Rings ?? Just wondering if that had anything to go with it ..

Bure made it to the playoff a grand total of 5 times and was a none factor in 4 of them , not the best stats for a HOF nomination ...

He does but that is a Team award, not an individual award in my opinion. Bure actually has good playoff numbers and Gillies playoff numbers are poor except for the fact that his penalty minutes increased.
If rings is a criteria is Esa Tikkanen a HOF player or Bobby Bourne? Bob Bourne had excellent playoff numbers-much better than Gillies and his regular season numbers are much better than a Dick Duff as an example and yet why no Bourne in the HOF or a Rick MacLeish. He was a known clutch player in the playoffs and the Flyers best playoff player other than Bernie Parent in their two Cup wins and yet is he a HOF player?
Conversly how Brad Park a HOF player with no rings or Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert etc!
Frankly I was shocked when Clark Gillies was put in the HOF and wrote about it here!

[bigjack]

During the Islander 4 Cup years:

Bob Bourne played in 74 games and scored 31 goals and 74 points as a 3rd line player.

Clark Gillies played in 66 games and scored 20 goals and 47 points!

I wrote about Bourne awhile back and how he never gets a mention for his clutch play when the Islanders were winning Cups!

We always read about Butch Goring and the fact that he was the glue or missing piece and yet he played in:

78 games with 27 goals and 62 points!

Just some food for thought?

[canuckfan]

Originally Posted by fansince65

Bure made it to the playoff a grand total of 5 times and was a none factor in 4 of them , not the best stats for a HOF nomination ...

I see where you're coming from.

But even though he appeared in only 5 post seasons, he still scored 70 points in 64 playoff games. This was a super-talented player who saved some of his best for the post season, scored a point per game, and did not disappear into the background the way some other talented players have a habit of doing. To say he was a total non-factor in the playoffs is incorrect, imo - the fact that one of his teams only progressed past the second round once wasn't due to a lack of effort on his part, thats for sure.

1994 was key though - Bure was a goal scoring machine (16 goals and 31 points in 24 playoff games) and was a HUGE part in taking the Canucks to game 7 of the finals that year. He scored the double OT goal against the Flames in game 7 in the opening round, one of the best series ending goals ever scored, plus a huge 2 goal performance in game 5 against the Rangers when the Canucks backs were really up against the wall. He was just dynamite in those playoffs, probably the best hockey he ever played, and even though it was the same with McLean and Linden, the Canucks wouldn't have made it that far without Bure's efforts.

In the end, we're talking about a supremely talented player here. His numbers don't lie. But injuries took a serious toll on him right in the prime of his career and plagued his final seasons, and he also unfortunatley played on some brutal hockey teams in the final half of his career. Yeah, there's a lack of Stanley Cups on his resume, and that may keep him out of the Hall in the years to come, but when healthy, no other player was as dominant as Bure could be and no one scored prettier goals. Its just a shame circumstances and health failed to get him that championship, because he was a true competitor and winner.

[Maggie3and Me]

Here are some persuasive arguments for Pavel Bure’s membership in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Will he make it in this year or next year? No.

Out of the 10 players who have 50 or more goals in a season 5 times or more, Bure is the only one not in the HOF, now that Hull and Yzerman are in.

Of the 8 players scoring 60 or more goals in a season 2 times or more , only Bure is not in the Hall, now that Hull and Yzerman are in.

Of the 12 players who won the scoring title 3 or more times, only Bure and Selanne are not in the Hall, now that Hull is in the Hall.

I think the Russian Rocket will get into the Hall someday, but when, who knows for sure. I do feel Selanne goes in before him. While that makes for a longer wait, it also clears the way for him.

Congratulations to Brett Hull and Steve Yzerman for their induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame.

[Killah_punk]

Originally Posted by Maggie3and Me

Congratulations to Brett Hull and Steve Yzerman for their induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame.

What about Luc Robitaille? No congrats for the highest scoring left winger all time?

[Maggie3and Me]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

What about Luc Robitaille? No congrats for the highest scoring left winger all time?

No slight intended Killah, to him or to Brian Leetch.

By all means congratulations to them all.

I heard it said on Versus that this was an excellent class and I do agree with that.

I was only mentioning the other two in the context of the three categories above, as criteria for the HOF.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by canuckfan

I see where you're coming from.

But even though he appeared in only 5 post seasons, he still scored 70 points in 64 playoff games. This was a super-talented player who saved some of his best for the post season, scored a point per game, and did not disappear into the background the way some other talented players have a habit of doing. To say he was a total non-factor in the playoffs is incorrect, imo - the fact that one of his teams only progressed past the second round once wasn't due to a lack of effort on his part, thats for sure.

1994 was key though - Bure was a goal scoring machine (16 goals and 31 points in 24 playoff games) and was a HUGE part in taking the Canucks to game 7 of the finals that year. He scored the double OT goal against the Flames in game 7 in the opening round, one of the best series ending goals ever scored, plus a huge 2 goal performance in game 5 against the Rangers when the Canucks backs were really up against the wall. He was just dynamite in those playoffs, probably the best hockey he ever played, and even though it was the same with McLean and Linden, the Canucks wouldn't have made it that far without Bure's efforts.

In the end, we're talking about a supremely talented player here. His numbers don't lie. But injuries took a serious toll on him right in the prime of his career and plagued his final seasons, and he also unfortunatley played on some brutal hockey teams in the final half of his career. Yeah, there's a lack of Stanley Cups on his resume, and that may keep him out of the Hall in the years to come, but when healthy, no other player was as dominant as Bure could be and no one scored prettier goals. Its just a shame circumstances and health failed to get him that championship, because he was a true competitor and winner.

I agree that he was fine. Except for his stupid penalty against the Rangers in one of the games, he was awesome. Thank God Richter made that unreal save against him on the penalty shot but Bure was such a threat and what a finisher!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

What about Luc Robitaille? No congrats for the highest scoring left winger all time?

Not from me! His play as a Ranger was disgraceful and I never forgave him for it. He proved he was one of those athletes who couldn't handle NY! He was brought in to get the goals that Gartner had scored and sucked and was so gutless!
Lucky Luc my as*!
He goes back to LA and all of a sudden is scoring again!

[Killah_punk]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Not from me! His play as a Ranger was disgraceful and I never forgave him for it. He proved he was one of those athletes who couldn't handle NY! He was brought in to get the goals that Gartner had scored and sucked and was so gutless!
Lucky Luc my as*!
He goes back to LA and all of a sudden is scoring again!

His first season back to LA was worse then his Ranger years. He ended his streak of 11 seasons to start his career with it least 20 goals scored in a season. It was the 98-99 season where he rejuvanated his career when alot of people thought he was finished and came back to score it least 30 goals 4 years straight once again overcoming the odds. Jack by the time the Rangers got Luc he was already 10 seasons into his career and no longer in his 20's. He still scored back to back 20 goal season but he just wasn't at the peak of his career when he got there much like Gretzky.

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

His first season back to LA was worse then his Ranger years. He ended his streak of 11 seasons to start his career with it least 20 goals scored in a season. It was the 98-99 season where he rejuvanated his career when alot of people thought he was finished and came back to score it least 30 goals 4 years straight once again overcoming the odds. Jack by the time the Rangers got Luc he was already 10 seasons into his career and no longer in his 20's. He still scored back to back 20 goal season but he just wasn't at the peak of his career when he got there much like Gretzky.

I liked what Luc had to say when it was his turn to talk , his telling Gretzky that playing with him as a team-mate were the best years of his life and that he would never forget those years for the rest of his life was a class thing to do ...

[canuckfan]

Originally Posted by bigjack

I agree that he was fine. Except for his stupid penalty against the Rangers in one of the games, he was awesome. Thank God Richter made that unreal save against him on the penalty shot but Bure was such a threat and what a finisher!

Oh God, don't get me started. Talk about two pivotal turning points. That penalty Bure took ( a high sticking major with the game misconduct on Jay Wells, as it drew a tiny bit of blood) would have been a 4 minute double minor in todays NHL and Bure would have stayed in the game. I think the Canucks were up 1, or 2-0 in the game at that point - after that penalty, and with Bure out for the night, the Rags stormed back and won 5-2. I 've heard some say that was karma for the elbow on Churla that went unpenalized!

The penalty shot was just as influential. I think it happened late in the first period, or early in the second. If Bure scored, the Canucks would have won that game. But Richter saved it, and the Rags went on to win both games in Van-city.

I always thought Richter must have done his homework on Bure. Pavel had beaten a dozen goalies with that exact same move, including Mike Vernon in game 7 against the Flames. Talk about a couple knives in the heart.

If lady luck had been a bit kinder to the Canucks, if the odd bounce went one way instead of the other, I firmly believe we would have won that series and I wouldn't be so bitchy about it to this day!

Seeing Leetch at the HHOF ceremony last night brought back some painful memories.....

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

His first season back to LA was worse then his Ranger years. He ended his streak of 11 seasons to start his career with it least 20 goals scored in a season. It was the 98-99 season where he rejuvanated his career when alot of people thought he was finished and came back to score it least 30 goals 4 years straight once again overcoming the odds. Jack by the time the Rangers got Luc he was already 10 seasons into his career and no longer in his 20's. He still scored back to back 20 goal season but he just wasn't at the peak of his career when he got there much like Gretzky.

I hear ya but I watched all his games and he was brutal in NY. He really let the Rangers down and it was such a disappointment. We gave up Zubov as part of that deal and as I wrote he was gonna replace the goals that Gartner used to score and yet nothing!
Smith had acquired Pat Verbeek who played great and I loved him and of course all of a sudden Smith lost his checkbook and allowed Verbeek to walk for nothing and his great play with Messier was gone!
Comparing Luc to Gretzky wasn't fair because Gretzky was still a top 5 scorer in his first two NY years and played great and it was only because of linemates who ruined his great passes that the Great One didn't score alot more! I wrote here years ago that Gretzky in his first year had 97 points and 72 assists if I remember right and should of had 110 assists easily with decent linemates. He'd make great pass after great pass and some clown wouldn't finish the play and Gretzky would see his great play ruined. He could of definitely had 135-140 points in year 1 and 130 points in year 2 with some linemates!
Verbeek fit like a glove with Messier and Robitaille was brutal with Gretzky as was Sundstrom!
It was so sad to watch game after game!
It's like Jagr or now Gaborik! Until you watch a guy game after game, you can't really appreciate their greatness or conversly their flaws like a Nedved, Kovalev, Robitaille in NY etc! Watching the Great One game after game really gave me a thrill to watch a passing genius at work and a guy with unreal vision and a hockey brain!
That Cat could pass the puck and see the ice!