THE Nick Fotiu thread

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

I don't recall any other fighter's card getting scrutinized to the degree that we are now discounting wins over rookies. Never mind that Hunter was 23/24 years old at the time of the Fotiu fight or that Nilan was 24. I don't know, I just find it a poor argument. You fight, you win, you lose, you draw.

I've never seen anyone take credit away from a fighter for beating rookies. Should we now discount Nystrom's win over Playfair since Playfair was a 20 year-old rookie at the time of that fight? Nystrom had his hands full with Hoyda, also a 20 year-old rookie when Nystrom fought him. How about his fight with Fraser, another 20 year-old rookie?

Do we discount Probert's win over Scott Parker because Parker was a 20 year-old rookie?

I'm sure there are plenty of fighters who hold big wins over young fighters that never get brought up, but with Fotiu, it becomes a big deal.

I do agree that the Fotiu myth is overrated, but the bias against him is quickly becoming every bit as exaggerated.

Great post Howatt, my rebuttal is is most of the cases is Yes ..it was a factor in the outcome (with the 19 , 20 yrs olds). Why...? experience. I talked to Probert about this very thing back in the day...we compared every aspect of hockey from juniors to minors to the "bigs". He said the strength difference from NHL to minors was huge, then again minors to juniors a huge gap as well. The shots were faster , the forecheck quicker, the d-men stronger, and the fighters more skilled and stronger. So yes, I don't see Nystrom having as easy a time with a prime Playfair ...no way. You could tell by watching his fights over the yrs that he got better technically and appeared to be much stronger( like just about any player ...you won't meet an ex-nhl er that thought he was as strong at 20 as he was at 25+. They all get stronger , put on more weight, and learn things when fighting experienced fighters. It's just the natural evolution of hockey. B.Wilson was another example , you could see him learn that first yr ..he got tied up a lot in that first season . ...but later a master tie up man in Nilan couldn't stop Behn uppercut. Now in the case of Wendel Clark , another tough as nails rookie ..since Wendel didn't fight with great amounts of strategy ..just a fury ..he didn't appear to improve much -but was great right out if the gate- he probably just got stronger but when you fight with a fury like he did...there isn't much technique to learn or improve.
I see it this way the NF wins( edge win -for me NF pulled it out at the end to get a split decision at best) over rookie Wilson is impressive for NF but if they fought when Wilson was prime I put my money on Wilson in a 10 fight series as most on here would ...he was just a better fighter in almost every way. I give Fotiu full marks for Hunter and Nilan - but to me neither fight was particularly impressive ..both short quick punches and throw to the ground and end it quickly ..not much to me. His later CAL impressed me more ..he got into some longer exchanges and showed more to me. But yes anytime a 19-20 yr old fights a veteran there should be an established edge for the vet... no question about it. Was Probie's win over Parker slightly tainted? I think so ..Parker was taken to school and looked lost and didn't know how to fight ..a 10 fight series I see much closer vs a prime Parker. Again, not discount the win , but a qualification is needed. Fotiu's card is weak, but I will say I saw him vs most of the HW and he wasn't a shrinking violet ..with 2 exceptions he didn't pick his spots..but many times players avoided him , partially because he was a poor player but also for a mountain of a rep..remember I was in Windsor Ontario and anyone who read the Hockey News and liked fighting knew about Fotiu's rep from the WHA before he was in NY...so you can't chalk it up to NY media exclusively. It's just harder to explain to the younger posters on here about how different the NHL was back then-before videos or hf.com. Rep carried so much weight and combined with the fact that NF was perfectly happy just riding that wave then constantly defending his title . I believe the guy didn't love fighting at all..deep inside some of these guys (Probie, etc) ..they love to fight -the joy of combat ..it's deep inside , they may not be proud of it..but there's a reason Probie would call me up and say "Hey bring over some fight tapes..we're playing TOR ...I wanna get in the mood". He enjoyed watching fights, JK would jump off the couch anticipating the next fight on a tape..it was hilarious. Jay Miller told my BOS trader that he thought Kordic "lived to fight".
As far as comparing Gillies to NF- big difference is in power...Gillies could end your career as a fighter( and did)- he also was not interested in fighting , in fact I 'd go as far as to say Gillies HATED fighting. Back then , if you hated fighting, were destructive, and played clean..chances are your not gonna have 30 fights/ season .

[Johnny Pie]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

I don't recall any other fighter's card getting scrutinized to the degree that we are now discounting wins over rookies. Never mind that Hunter was 23/24 years old at the time of the Fotiu fight or that Nilan was 24. I don't know, I just find it a poor argument. You fight, you win, you lose, you draw.

I've never seen anyone take credit away from a fighter for beating rookies. Should we now discount Nystrom's win over Playfair since Playfair was a 20 year-old rookie at the time of that fight? Nystrom had his hands full with Hoyda, also a 20 year-old rookie when Nystrom fought him. How about his fight with Fraser, another 20 year-old rookie?

Do we discount Probert's win over Scott Parker because Parker was a 20 year-old rookie?

I'm sure there are plenty of fighters who hold big wins over young fighters that never get brought up, but with Fotiu, it becomes a big deal.

I do agree that the Fotiu myth is overrated, but the bias against him is quickly becoming every bit as exaggerated.

Well, Howie got to disagree with you at least on my end about the bias being exaggerated against Fotiu. The fighting young guys or rookies is B.S. doesn't make a difference. His fights do. You compare Nystrom's fights with Playfair, Hoyda and Fraser with Fotiu's fights with Nilan and Hunter and even the Wilson fight. Nystrom's bouts were toe to toe swingouts that proved the fighter that he was no matter what the age of the top flight player he was fighting. Fotiu doesn't have one fight that compares. That is where the exaggeration is. The guy has very few toe to toe bouts. Two that he had he lost vs Wolfman. Other than that Schoeny, Craig C, what else that is even close. That is what I am saying has to be counted along with his card. His wins are exaggerated. The Wilson fight being the biggest. That fight is not that great but is made out to be some titanic struggle. Very exaggerated because unlike Nystrom or Oreilly or a host of others there is not much else to pick from. I think my opinion of Fotiu is based on the Fights he had and the effect his actual playing had. Not speculation and opinion. He doesn't deserve top 25 consideration if you base it on what actually happened in my humble opinion.

[Howatt8]

Originally Posted by Johnny Pie

Well, Howie got to disagree with you at least on my end about the bias being exaggerated against Fotiu. The fighting young guys or rookies is B.S. doesn't make a difference. His fights do. You compare Nystrom's fights with Playfair, Hoyda and Fraser with Fotiu's fights with Nilan and Hunter and even the Wilson fight. Nystrom's bouts were toe to toe swingouts that proved the fighter that he was no matter what the age of the top flight player he was fighting. Fotiu doesn't have one fight that compares. That is where the exaggeration is. The guy has very few toe to toe bouts. Two that he had he lost vs Wolfman. Other than that Schoeny, Craig C, what else that is even close. That is what I am saying has to be counted along with his card. His wins are exaggerated. The Wilson fight being the biggest. That fight is not that great but is made out to be some titanic struggle. Very exaggerated because unlike Nystrom or Oreilly or a host of others there is not much else to pick from. I think my opinion of Fotiu is based on the Fights he had and the effect his actual playing had. Not speculation and opinion. He doesn't deserve top 25 consideration if you base it on what actually happened in my humble opinion.

No problem JP, I can understand why some would not consider Fotiu to be a top 25 fighter. Being a lifelong Ranger fan, I certainly liked having Fotiu, but I'm not related to the guy or anything, nor do I find the need to exaggerate anything he's ever done. I thought Gunslinger and Flyer Frank summed it up rather well with a few short words.

Two terms I hate to use when it comes to heavyweights is "afraid" or "punked out". I don't think there is one enforcer that ever played this game that didn't turn down someone at some point. In the WHA, Fotiu turned down Ted Scharf, for whatever reason. Scharf clearly challenged Fotiu in front of the net and Fotiu turned and skated away.

Personally, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that a guy like O'Reilly was afraid of Nick Fotiu. That, to me, is laughable. I watched O'Reilly fight with a separated shoulder, go to the box and pop his shoulder back in, talk about a warrior. O'Reilly was the type of guy that you could kick his ass 5X and he'd be looking forward to fight number 6, lol.

I think a lot of older Ranger fans remember those pre-1976 years when the Rangers were the leagues biggest pansy's. You probably remember the 72 playoffs when Sanderson beat up on Rod Gilbert and Bobby Rousseau. Then you go to 1974 and you watch Schultz beat up on Pete Stemkowski, Middleton, Rolfe, and Brad Park.

I remember a game where the Rangers allowed Schultz to beat up on Rick Middleton and Bob Kelly to beat up Gene Carr with no retaliation. In 76, Curt Bennett breaks Dave Maloney's jaw.

This is what Ranger fans lived with. So if Ranger fans overrate Fotiu, IMO, it is somewhat understandable, seeing as what we lived with for over a decade. Not saying it should change anyone's opinion and as I've grown older and wiser, I understand the case against him and agree with it to a degree. He is certainly overrated by Ranger fans and I can't stand reading about all this fear and terror he invoked. However, he was much more respected amongst his peers than he is on these fight boards.

You're a Bruins fan, so you wouldn't quite understand, seeing as how you not only iced the toughest team in the league for quite some time, but you also had the number 1 heart and soul guy in O'Reilly and the greatest player to ever play the game in Orr.

Man, I am actually jealous, lol.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by I like Boobs

I have no problems saying that Fotiu was a good fighter. No problems saying he was a good enforcer. Above average in both categories. It's when I read page after page of making Fotiu appear as superman... Reading "story" (for that's all they are) of all time great fighters backing down to Fotiu, while he goes and fights rookies and easy marks is when I get annoyed. He was a very limited player, who was brought in as a native New Yorker to serve and protect. He fought rarely and he scored less... Wouldn't engage in many square offs with various foes and mostly Just blustered behind linesmen while coasting off a Big Apple enhanced propoganda machine.

You can try to prove me wrong but it's impossible. Fotiu's fight card is one comprised of second tier guys and rookies. Lost many, especially against guys with experience, in a poor career. When it counts with results, Fotiu is an also ran.

You can try to prove me wrong but it's impossible

The above statement is the product of a derranged mind, moreover, oxymoronic.

Obviously, with all the folks with Fotiu seating in their top 25 you are in the small (biased) minority.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

[quote=pesadillamal;2505238]There are plenty of very good posters in here that have nothing to do with any NY propaganda machine that feel he did more than simply bluster behind linesmen. You want to talk about stories? Look at what you wrote about the scrum with Wilson.

That is a story and nothing more. Wilson was never in the scrum tied up with another player. He was outside the scrum draped all over a Ranger from behind. Fotiu saw this from inside the scrum and immediately yelled something and made his way from the middle of the scrum out towards Wilson. Some Flyer tries to impede Fotiu and when Fotiu turns to deal with him Wilson comes out and puts a hand on Fotiu's shoulder. Fotiu turns to get in Wilson's face and Wilson backs up against the boards and turns his head away. They are by themselves now and could have easily fought so there was more going on there then talking in a scrum.

There is no implied fear in my statement because there could be many reasons to decline a fight, or at least to turn away from a fighter that is in your face in case that is not declining a fight to some. Still, it happened and is clear to see. We could have had two Wilson - Fotiu fights to talk about.

If that was Wilson making his way from the middle of a pile to get in Fotiu's face only to have Fotiu turn his head and back up you would be all over Fotiu so I think there is bias from both sides here. That was Wilson turning to face Fotiu after the linesman got in there not Fotiu, so who was "blustering behind linesmen " there? He was an " above average fighter and an above average enforcer" that "lost many, especially against guys with experience, in a poor career". Sorry Boobs, you are a much better poster than me but it sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. I have not seen any Superman comments in this thread. Is that what you were hoping for? Too many compliments from non Ranger fans for you?

Also: With regard to the "squareoffs" you notice all the biased/detractors of NF insist that Fotiu make the first move? Why? McSorely has/had two good arms and fists, why not he take the first shot? Wilson, likewise, had ample opportunity to take a swing not only in the incident you speak of but countless more after that.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

I don't recall any other fighter's card getting scrutinized to the degree that we are now discounting wins over rookies. Never mind that Hunter was 23/24 years old at the time of the Fotiu fight or that Nilan was 24. I don't know, I just find it a poor argument. You fight, you win, you lose, you draw.

I've never seen anyone take credit away from a fighter for beating rookies. Should we now discount Nystrom's win over Playfair since Playfair was a 20 year-old rookie at the time of that fight? Nystrom had his hands full with Hoyda, also a 20 year-old rookie when Nystrom fought him. How about his fight with Fraser, another 20 year-old rookie?

Do we discount Probert's win over Scott Parker because Parker was a 20 year-old rookie?

I'm sure there are plenty of fighters who hold big wins over young fighters that never get brought up, but with Fotiu, it becomes a big deal.

I do agree that the Fotiu myth is overrated, but the bias against him is quickly becoming every bit as exaggerated.

Consider the source.

[RetardedChimp]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

You can try to prove me wrong but it's impossible

...

Obviously, with all the folks with Fotiu seating in their top 25 you are in the small (biased) minority.

Surely you see the irony of you posting this...

[Johnny Pie]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

No problem JP, I can understand why some would not consider Fotiu to be a top 25 fighter. Being a lifelong Ranger fan, I certainly liked having Fotiu, but I'm not related to the guy or anything, nor do I find the need to exaggerate anything he's ever done. I thought Gunslinger and Flyer Frank summed it up rather well with a few short words.

Two terms I hate to use when it comes to heavyweights is "afraid" or "punked out". I don't think there is one enforcer that ever played this game that didn't turn down someone at some point. In the WHA, Fotiu turned down Ted Scharf, for whatever reason. Scharf clearly challenged Fotiu in front of the net and Fotiu turned and skated away.

Personally, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that a guy like O'Reilly was afraid of Nick Fotiu. That, to me, is laughable. I watched O'Reilly fight with a separated shoulder, go to the box and pop his shoulder back in, talk about a warrior. O'Reilly was the type of guy that you could kick his ass 5X and he'd be looking forward to fight number 6, lol.

I think a lot of older Ranger fans remember those pre-1976 years when the Rangers were the leagues biggest pansy's. You probably remember the 72 playoffs when Sanderson beat up on Rod Gilbert and Bobby Rousseau. Then you go to 1974 and you watch Schultz beat up on Pete Stemkowski, Middleton, Rolfe, and Brad Park.

I remember a game where the Rangers allowed Schultz to beat up on Rick Middleton and Bob Kelly to beat up Gene Carr with no retaliation. In 76, Curt Bennett breaks Dave Maloney's jaw.

This is what Ranger fans lived with. So if Ranger fans overrate Fotiu, IMO, it is somewhat understandable, seeing as what we lived with for over a decade. Not saying it should change anyone's opinion and as I've grown older and wiser, I understand the case against him and agree with it to a degree. He is certainly overrated by Ranger fans and I can't stand reading about all this fear and terror he invoked. However, he was much more respected amongst his peers than he is on these fight boards.

You're a Bruins fan, so you wouldn't quite understand, seeing as how you not only iced the toughest team in the league for quite some time, but you also had the number 1 heart and soul guy in O'Reilly and the greatest player to ever play the game in Orr.

Man, I am actually jealous, lol.

Howatt again I agree with most of what you say and also others make valid points. Reasonable arguments .I have never argued that he wasn't very well respected and that he didn't give his teammates courage and a certain amount of stability. Never said he wasn't tough or wasn't a good fighter. It was exactly the B.S about the fear and terror he invoked because of his fights and strength that got me. He never showed in his fights this unbelievable ability to take apart the top tier fighters. All I am saying is put him in his proper place without all the hype. I do understand that Ranger fans might overrate him because of the feeling that you finally have someone to stand up to the best but it actually frustrated me that he didn't do more. I was afraid of what he could do but better Top fighter fight top fighter instead of no fighting. Imagine if Schultz and Maloney and Gillies and so many other Tough guys didn't fight with Oreilly, Cash etc. . We certainly didn't win them all but I am sure glad they fought. One thing about the Rangers I tried to show with the pictures is in the pre 72 era they were not a bunch of *******. They fought with Bruins and others. When the game didn't have the designated tough guys they didn't run and hide. Even against my Bruins they lost because of Orr not because they were run out of the building. The Bruins had more player/fighters but the Rangers were far from sissies.

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by battleship25

Fotiu's card is weak, but I will say I saw him vs most of the HW and he wasn't a shrinking violet ..with 2 exceptions he didn't pick his spots..but many times players avoided him , partially because he was a poor player but also for a mountain of a rep..remember I was in Windsor Ontario and anyone who read the Hockey News and liked fighting knew about Fotiu's rep from the WHA before he was in NY...so you can't chalk it up to NY media exclusively. It's just harder to explain to the younger posters on here about how different the NHL was back then-before videos or hf.com. Rep carried so much weight and combined with the fact that NF was perfectly happy just riding that wave then constantly defending his title . I believe the guy didn't love fighting at all.

I think you got this nailed. Rep can go along way to this day even with websites and videotapes. I remember the noticeable difference after Sandy McCarthy got here to Philly. The Flyers always had guys who could fight, they'd back their teammates, but things changed. That was even more pronounced back in the day. If you can stay in the game more, get more ice time, I really believe you're a better enforcer. Of course lots of fight fans don't like it, but a player should put the team first. I think the boxing background played a lot into Fotiu's style. If he didn't like fighting, he would never have boxed at all and it seems that was his number one sport for quite awhile in his youth. He fought to his strength. Why not? Like I wrote before, he made it work and he lasted 14-15 seasons in the major leagues.

[Mox MOx]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

Kindrachuk wasn't actually an awful fighter. He was a lot of guys from that era and was capable. No world beater, but capable.
.

Nothing to do with the thread, but I remember Borje Salming relating an episode that occurred in a game between the Penguins and the Maple Leafs after the Leafs had aquired Dave Hutchison from the Kings.

According to the story Hutchison yelled at Kindrachuck at one point in the game when they were both on the ice: "you're not so tough now Kindrachuck, you're not with Philly anymore."

According to the story, Kindrachuck seemed less than enthusiastic about standing up for himself after the verbal insult directed at him by Hutchison, proving Hutchison's point.

Nice seeing you posting here again, Howatt8

[I like Boobs]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

I don't recall any other fighter's card getting scrutinized to the degree that we are now discounting wins over rookies. Never mind that Hunter was 23/24 years old at the time of the Fotiu fight or that Nilan was 24. I don't know, I just find it a poor argument. You fight, you win, you lose, you draw.

I've never seen anyone take credit away from a fighter for beating rookies. Should we now discount Nystrom's win over Playfair since Playfair was a 20 year-old rookie at the time of that fight? Nystrom had his hands full with Hoyda, also a 20 year-old rookie when Nystrom fought him. How about his fight with Fraser, another 20 year-old rookie?

Do we discount Probert's win over Scott Parker because Parker was a 20 year-old rookie?

I'm sure there are plenty of fighters who hold big wins over young fighters that never get brought up, but with Fotiu, it becomes a big deal.

I do agree that the Fotiu myth is overrated, but the bias against him is quickly becoming every bit as exaggerated.

It's more of a "I'm sick of reading all these super human exploits, when in reality Fotiu's fight card sucked and his fights were few and far between." For years there have been literally dozens of threads lauding this player - but what has he done? Less than 60 NHL regular season fights.... Picked his spots constantly....I don't think you can deny that the fight card shows. Rangers benched him and cut him for nothing... Than he plays in Hartford and in 74 GAMES has ONE fight against....Scott Campbell. Not quite the no fight year pitched by Chris Simon but damned close.

You mention Probert, Nystrom, Playfair, etc.... You know what sets them apart from Fotiu? They fought. And against the best of their eras. And they had good fights.

Here's a challenge - Name 10 good Fotiu fights against quality opposition. Can it be done?

[I like Boobs]

Originally Posted by RetardedChimp

Surely you see the irony of you posting this...

Glad someone caught it

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by I like Boobs

Here's a challenge - Name 10 good Fotiu fights against quality opposition. Can it be done?

No. No it cannot.

[Howatt8]

Originally Posted by Mox MOx

Nothing to do with the thread, but I remember Borje Salming relating an episode that occurred in a game between the Penguins and the Maple Leafs after the Leafs had aquired Dave Hutchison from the Kings.

According to the story Hutchison yelled at Kindrachuck at one point in the game when they were both on the ice: "you're not so tough now Kindrachuck, you're not with Philly anymore."

According to the story, Kindrachuck seemed less than enthusiastic about standing up for himself after the verbal insult directed at him by Hutchison, proving Hutchison's point.

Nice seeing you posting here again, Howatt8

Oh I believe it Mox, that seemed to infect a number of the bullies once they left Philly.

Best example was the transformation of Don Saleski. Not that I ever thought much of Saleski, but he went from a high penalty minute guy to a Lady Byng candidate.

[fcm]

Obviously you people know a lot more than me on the subject, but anyway, the problem with Fotiu isn't Fotiu himself being a bad scrapper or anything, the problem is more about Rangers fan praising him to the point where he should be considered when we list the 10 best fighters in hockey history.