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Old 11-07-2012, 07:25 PM
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while I'm off topic here, i'll continue on-what exactly puts kocur in #1 all-time territory? This is one of those facinating things I've seen here on HF and it has to be explored. Kocur at #1 all-time is a tough sell for me but I'm willing to listen so long as you don't mind polite debate about the topic. thanks.
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Of course Behn Wilson lost only a "few" fights. He played in an era where several "great" fighters lost only a "few" fights. Does that make his era so incredibly "great"? Or does it make it incredibly "weak"?
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:34 AM
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Is there any reason why we wouldn't count preseason or playoff fights? I've seen great great fights in both the preaseason and the playoffs-do they simply not count? Maybe a bit off topic but it's worth asking as this kind of thing has come up before. a fight is a fight in my book no matter when it happens. mikeB-you absolutely should count preseason and playoff fights in your rankings. man I can still remember that unbelievable war between grimson and vial in the preaseason or that fantastic probert-angelstad fight as well. there's no way i can disregard them because they happened in the preaseason. jonathan's epic bloodying of bouchard in the playoffs, the great series between gillies and o'reilly in that classic playoff series. wensink-nystrom-the list goes on and on.


Perhaps I should have but I think it is really difficult for pre season games because so much video doesn't exist for them.

I remember reading about Dale Henry when he was with the Islanders organization along with Vukota and Baumgartner and they played Philly in the preseason and Henry was just a nut, he was 5-10 and went right after Dave Brown and Brownie just beat the piss out him, he went to the locker room, got stitched up, iced down, and rubbed and went right back out and Brownie beat the piss out of him again. LOL

I also remember reading about Tony Twist when he was with the Blues and how Herb Raglan, Twist, and Kelly Chase would be on one team and Todd Ewen would be on the other in scrimmages and practice and that they'd all be trying to fight Ewen, stick fights, 3 on 1, crazy stuff and Ewen always felt really isolated and resentful of the team for that. He eventually was traded to Montreal. Go figure.

Anyway, so many fights happen that we don't get to see. playoffs we do so I think those should be included and maybe guys get extra points for fighting in the playoffs, guys like Gillies, O'Reilly, McSorley, Tim Hunter, etc.

The newer generation gets severely punished for it though because so many teams don't even dress an enforcer in the playoffs. Look at New Jersey last season, did they even have a major in the playoffs? Good god.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by srehm1 View Post
Is there any reason why we wouldn't count preseason or playoff fights? I've seen great great fights in both the preaseason and the playoffs-do they simply not count? Maybe a bit off topic but it's worth asking as this kind of thing has come up before. a fight is a fight in my book no matter when it happens. mikeB-you absolutely should count preseason and playoff fights in your rankings. man I can still remember that unbelievable war between grimson and vial in the preaseason or that fantastic probert-angelstad fight as well. there's no way i can disregard them because they happened in the preaseason. jonathan's epic bloodying of bouchard in the playoffs, the great series between gillies and o'reilly in that classic playoff series. wensink-nystrom-the list goes on and on.
When I look at a players body of work and go to ranks them i watch the fighters available fights. Whether it's from the regular season, playoffs, or preseason. Hell even training camp fights if there is video available. If anything the preseason and playoff fights usually have as more value then a regular season fight. This is because in the playoffs there is a lot more on the line and these fights often occur out of battle and can swing the momentum in a teams favor. The preseason fights are often fighters who are battling for there jobs or young guys looking to do something to make an impression and stick with the big club. Not to mention in the preseason you get some pretty nasty guys who aren't ever going to make it to the NHL so this is there one chance to show what they have at the highest level and other fighters are just as aware.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:52 PM
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Sure. If it was a sanctioned game that people paid to see and it was sponsored by the NHL ...
Alright, then he's on there.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:03 PM
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Perhaps I should have but I think it is really difficult for pre season games because so much video doesn't exist for them.

I remember reading about Dale Henry when he was with the Islanders organization along with Vukota and Baumgartner and they played Philly in the preseason and Henry was just a nut, he was 5-10 and went right after Dave Brown and Brownie just beat the piss out him, he went to the locker room, got stitched up, iced down, and rubbed and went right back out and Brownie beat the piss out of him again. LOL

I also remember reading about Tony Twist when he was with the Blues and how Herb Raglan, Twist, and Kelly Chase would be on one team and Todd Ewen would be on the other in scrimmages and practice and that they'd all be trying to fight Ewen, stick fights, 3 on 1, crazy stuff and Ewen always felt really isolated and resentful of the team for that. He eventually was traded to Montreal. Go figure.

Anyway, so many fights happen that we don't get to see. playoffs we do so I think those should be included and maybe guys get extra points for fighting in the playoffs, guys like Gillies, O'Reilly, McSorley, Tim Hunter, etc.

The newer generation gets severely punished for it though because so many teams don't even dress an enforcer in the playoffs. Look at New Jersey last season, did they even have a major in the playoffs? Good god.
I do agree that there are preseason fights that are not televised or ever make it to the video circuit. For me, it really doesn't matter. I judge them off what I can see whether they are preseason, practice (probie-primeau!) or playoffs. Like KP mentioned-training camp as well. If a fight isn't televised-oh well. If it is-fine by me. like I mentioned, we've seen some remarkable preseason fights over the years and it is unfortunate some don't make it to video but they should still be considered. i couldn't imagine not counting that grimson-vial preseason war. An incredible fight. I simply cannot brush it aside and say "it doesn't count because it was in the preseason". the fight happened and I saw it with me own two eyes-it counts. Another preseason dandy would by rudy poeschek dropping Probert. Not on video and that's a shame-but it happened.
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Of course Behn Wilson lost only a "few" fights. He played in an era where several "great" fighters lost only a "few" fights. Does that make his era so incredibly "great"? Or does it make it incredibly "weak"?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2012, 08:51 PM
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How could you not include this:

Grimson vs Vial from Sep 21, 1992 (Pre Season) -...
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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I don't think I said they shouldn't count, just that it's too difficult to find video of all of them so it's hard to figure a winning percentage including preseason fights. The newer guys may get a nice boost because their preseason games are televised more.

I remember reading about Rudy besting Probie too but I don't think the game was televised.

Since all playoff games are televised, that would make it easier to include those.

The 60's and 70's era guys also get penalized since we can't see all of their fights. Maybe some day.
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