Mark Messier- Tough or Dirty?

[flamesblackace]

Dirty rotten a-hole!

[mikebflorida]

I think that's the biggest thing is that he would play the way he did but not back it up with his fists very often. When confronted by a real tough guy or as that video with Big Bird shows, he was a coward when confronted by someone he didn't think he could beat up.

Typical bully. It's too bad no one ever gave him a dose of his own medicine.

I respect the hatred of losing and the intense will to win but cheating to get it done is just low brow garbage and this guy was a total cheat.

I'll never forget when he scored either the tying goal or winning goal to win the cup for the 1940 Rangers, he hooked the dman, pulled himself around the guy, got the puck and scored. I almost pulled half my hair out in disbelief that no penalty was called and completely understood why Vancouver rioted after the game, it was maybe the most flagrant penalty not called of all time.

Some say that if you're not cheating you're not trying but it's such a bad message for the youth of the time that a jerk like Messier could throw elbows, hurt people, and get away with hooking, tripping, slashing, etc and get away with it AND be a winner too.

Thing is, he had the talent to win without cheating which makes him a loser in my book. I'd respect him so much more if he wasn't so dirty in almost every way. Alas, I have no respect for the guy.

[4thLineGoon]

How about this beaut? SNYrangerblog posted this last week, easy 5 gamer in today's league. Where's the respect oh captain my captain!?!

Mark Messier drills Mike Hough from behind -...

[fansince65]

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

He was both. I admit that I think his rep as "greatest captain of all time" is much overblown but there is no denying is ability as a player. Like Fan said, Mark was tough as nails and held his teamates accountable. He was both feared and respected by them. I remember an incident when he felt a team-mate (either Craig Simpson or Joe Murphy) was"nt pulling their weight and Mess grabbed him in the dressing room and lifted him up and pushed him into the wall to tell them to pick up the effort.

I am positive it was Craig Simpson ..

[rondo]

Originally Posted by 4thLineGoon

How about this beaut? SNYrangerblog posted this last week, easy 5 gamer in today's league. Where's the respect oh captain my captain!?!

Mark Messier drills Mike Hough from behind - YouTube

5 that would be 20-25 now. Wow that was vicious and yet no retalliation. I dont remember that one, scary that was as bad or worse than Lemieux on Draper.

[flex_buff_chest]

Both.

End thrad.

[pesadillamal]

One cheap shot not being talked about because you can't find it on Youtube is one that I remember well, and must admit with guilt that I loved. The Rangers played the Devils in the playoffs in 1997 and had already lost game 1. The Devils had out shot the Rangers 16-1 late in the first period of game 2 when Doug Gilmour took a run at Messier, right in front of the Devils bench I believe. Gilmour was soon laying on the ice after skating right into a crosscheck to the face.

The Rangers won game 2 and the next 3 games to win the series. It could be debated whether this nasty crosscheck was a factor in that but in my mind there was never any doubt. The cheap shot and lack of reaction from the Devils was huge. I can't find a clip but I found an article about it.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/1997...s-john-maclean

Mark Messier's cross-check to the chops of Doug Gilmour in Game 2 Sunday didn't have any long-term impact on Gilmour's physical health, and the Devils swear that it did no damage to their psyche, either.

"I never even saw it, so it couldn't have quieted me down," snorted Devils captain Scott Stevens, who said he didn't know about the unpenalized hit until he saw a replay.

"I saw it after the game. I've seen him do that before. I'm not surprised. He's going to get away with one, but he'll get caught every second one."

The Rangers scored on a power play just 24 seconds after the hit. The Devils, leading 16-1 in shots at the time (17:57 of the first period), were outshot 21-16 the rest of the game. But coach Jacques Lemaire pointed to other factors, like the play of goalie Mike Richter and the Devils' inept work on their 13:50 of power-play time.

The Devils did not ask for an NHL review of the incident NHL commissioner Gary Bettman was at the game, as was an NHL supervisor, David Nonis and the Devils say they will not act as vigilantes.

"That's not the way I play. I'm not going to cross-check someone in the head," said Stevens. "I'm going to take the body and take it clean. This isn't a time for getting even, because it will cost you a game. It's too important a time of year.

"We're going to take some cheap shots here and there, because (the officials) are not going to see them all. Maybe it goes the other way, too. That's just playoff hockey."

Gilmour, one of eight regulars who did not take part in yesterday's optional skate, said, "Obviously I'm not happy about it, but that's over and done with. I've got to concentrate on better things . . . It's not an issue."

[lilburtis9363]

I remember an interview with Tie Domi on showboating after his fights. I believe it was after the Daneyko fight where he did the speed-bag. Messier took him in another room and told him, "No more of that sh1t you're doing after your fights!"

[trey383]

Originally Posted by flex_buff_chest

Both.

End thrad.

Agree,a lot othese clips he is retaliating to dirty stuff from others on his team mates so no issue there really.The hit on Hough was nasty but he turned his back to Messier coming at pace so what was he gonna do?

I have no allegiance to any team or homerism or any of that but some people seem to hate him so everything he does is a dog act whether it truly is or not

[FistofFury]

Both

If someone could have straightened him out they would have. Tough, mean and dirty.

[flex_buff_chest]

Originally Posted by trey383

Agree,a lot othese clips he is retaliating to dirty stuff from others on his team mates so no issue there really.The hit on Hough was nasty but he turned his back to Messier coming at pace so what was he gonna do?

I have no allegiance to any team or homerism or any of that but some people seem to hate him so everything he does is a dog act whether it truly is or not

The reason I was so short my answer is that some people think that if you're tough you aren't cheap and vice versa.

Look at Domi, was a cheap piece of garbage at time, but no one can dispute his toughness.

[FistofFury]

Calgary fans hate him for obvious reasons. He bullied that team for a long time. To say he had no balls or wasn't tough is ridiculous. He instilled a lot of fear in his opponents which wasn't exactly an easy thing to do.

[29th_Candidate]

Both, but Messier was much dirtier than he ever was tough.

As to the Matt Cooke vs. Mark Messier comparison, Messier was as cheap and as dirty as Cooke on his worst day, but Messier seemed more motivated by the "win at any cost" mentality, while Cooke seems like he simply enjoys sadistically taking injurious cheap shots.

I don't lose respect for any players who are cheap and dirty, but who will drop the gloves with anybody who calls them out (Tiger Williams comes to mind), but Messier was not that sort of a true tough guy. He was a bully and perhaps a coward.

Sure, I would love to have had him on my team. You'd have to be an idiot not to want that sort of point/goal-scoring asset; that "win-at-all-costs" mentality, turning your team into a cup contender. I'd just hope he wasn't the guy the team depended on to drop the gloves and duke it out with the opposing team's tough guy, when push came to shove.

[Agnew]

Messier was definitely tough and a leader. I remember his two hander over the top of Thomas Gradin's helmet in the early 80s. I also recall his heroics when he dropped the gloves off the faceoff against the immortal Josef Beranek.

Although he has 6 cups (was it just because he was on strong teams?), he also missed the playoffs his last 7 seasons (was it just because he was on weak teams?)! I am sure there has to be some questioning on his leadership with somethng like that!

[FurnaceFace]

Messier definately has a long rap sheet. Also broke trevor linden's ribs in the 94 stanley cup finals. I think instead of calling him cheap.. id call him complete. As captain. he'd score, hit and do the "dirty work" sota speak. alot of cups. alot of all star games. and to last as long as he did playing the style of game he did .. i would say he had a certain degree of tough. As mentioned before.. he didnt have to fight tough guys as he was captain and superstar on his team. 1st liner.

A little story from tie domi's what it takes.
tie domi was talking about his first two fights with bob probert. and his heavy weight champion guesture. during the intermission . Mark messier grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and looked at him with devil eyes, and told him never to do the bs ever again.. its a disgrace. then after his scorning said. you are buying steaks for everyone tonight. and then that was that. so to scare the **** outta tie domi , you gotta have some toughness and presence. and tie did admit messier did scare him.