Mark Messier- Tough or Dirty?

[mikebflorida]

I think we all know that Mark Messier was a great hockey player and a revered captain of Stanley Cup winning teams.

He is arguably the greatest captain in NHL history, a true leader on the ice, the bench, and in the locker room.

However, he is known in some circles as being a tough guy, even showing up in one of Stan Fischler's books, Bad Boys.

Was he a tough guy though or just a thug with a reputation, someone not to be messed with because of his stature in the league?

Marty McSorely beat him down twice, gets real tough with Joel Otto while he's on his knees pinned to 4 other players, gets real tough with Darius Kasparitis throwing a punch while the little bastard has his gloves on, gets real tough with midget Jason Blake, almost choking him out in this small compilation of Mark Messier "fighting".

Mark Messier Fights - YouTube

Here's Mess jumping wildly into a scrum and jumping Jason Arnott from behind. As the linesman has Arnott in a bear hug, Mess takes a cheap shot at Arnott while he's defenseless. Is this a trend?

Mark Messier vs Jason Arnott & Patrik Elias...

Since I can't seem to find any more fights, here are the cheap shots that i know this guy for, here's 3 against the Pittsburgh Penguins alone-

3 Messier elbows (dirty) 95-96 playoffs - YouTube

Total cheap shot on Mike Modano, at least he didn't use his elbow that time-

Mark Messier kills Mike Modano - YouTube

Wait, I found another "fight" against Vladimir Konstantinov- wow. Mess is so scary even the linesman doesn't want to tangle with him!

Mark Messier vs Vladamir Konstantinov - YouTube

Here's another cheap shot on Frank Musil-

Mark Messier Elbows Frank Musil - CHEAPSHOT -...

Here's another one at the end of this video on a Toronto player-

Messier elbows Degray, hits 87-88 - YouTube

Here's another-

Messier Head Shot - YouTube

Here's Captain Courageous getting tough with Valeri Zelepukin, he really loses his temper-

Mark Messier vs Valeri Zelapukin - YouTube

Heres another typical Messier "fight" against Zarley Zalapski, throws a cheap shot as the linesmen holds the OTHER guy. What a dick-

Mark Messier vs Zarley Zalapski - YouTube

I'll never forget his elbow on Ric Nattress way back when but can't seem to find video of it.

The guy got away with murder on the ice because he was so "respected" by other players and officials and I still cannot figure out why.

Why is he lumped in with real tough guys who don't throw cheap shots? 50 fights in his career, playoffs included and was there a single one where he squared off and actually traded punches? I can find no evidence of this, only him throwing cheap shots, gloved punches, face washes, elbows, knees, leaving his feet, using his stick, the guy was as dirty as any super pest like Matt Cooke and he really hurt guys but he's known as a "leader" and a "super star".

That really bugs me.

[Shoryuken]

Dirty, without hesitation. An undeniably great player, but also dirty.

When I read articles about alltime fighters and see his name mentioned, I stop reading as it is clear at that point that the author hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

[V12_Bi-Turbo]

100% dirty, 100% *****, no balls

[rondo]

This is a tough one for me because Messier is one of my all-time favorite players. Was he dirty, no question yes. Was he tough, yes but no where near the the tough guy status. His fight card is sh-t. He was a bully and it surprises me that guys did not seek redemption against him.

A huge reason is that he always had super heavyweights on his bench. Guys like Semenko, McClelland, McSorely, Debrusk, Kocur, Simon, Brashear, McCarthy.

Messier got his teams to play tough and borderline dirty and they stuck together. With the exception of vancouver it worked.

[pesadillamal]

Both. I don't know who lumps him in with fighters but he obviously wasn't great at that. He was still a very tough hockey player though. Maybe dirtier than tough but only Bettman worshipers would really care about that. Dirtier than Matt Cooke? Sure, but he is known as a leader and a superstar because he has six Stanley Cups and is second all time in points. He is also known as a mean, dirty hockey player but if you only want people to acknowledge that then you are lost.

Some of these clips you posted are a joke to shed tears over. You are still crying about Otto even though Otto went up to Messier and instigated that fight. It didn't start with Otto on his knees.

Jason Arnott throws a bare fisted punch at a Ranger that is in a headlock and laying on the ice and all you could shed a tear over is Messier responding.

Things looked pretty calm with Zelepukin until Zelepukin jabbed Messier in the face with his left.

These cheap shots suck when they happen against your team but they are necessary if hockey is going to be played with the passion it should be. You better hope the strike gets resolved so you could see hockey without elbows and cheap shots and expect games to get out of hand for no reason. He probably got away with murder because he would not hesitate to throw his elbows or use his stick and he was also always protected.

[I like Boobs]

He gets a lot of respect because he won a bunch of cups and he's second all time in NHL scoring, behind only Gretzky, although I think Mario would have been easily second had he been able to stay healthy. Messier was a cheap bastard, but he was a cunning kind of cheap. He'd hurt guys when they were vulnerable - elbows, sticks, from behind... But he'd make it look so good, he often wouldn't draw a penalty, ala Nattress elbow. It didn't matter to him. He was vicious. But he won games, and he scored when it counted. Guy would and did do anything to win, back when hockey was a man's game and things were settled on the ice. Having a cheap prick like Messier around, kept guys like Adam Graves, Semenko, Kocur, etc... employed and busy as his actions would often have everyone riled up. I remember one time when he threatened a baseball style swing at Larry Robinson's head and Robinson was pissed. Thought Big Larry was going to kill him but Messier didn't go near him again. There's actually a clip of it as well:

Mark Messier vs Larry Robinson - roughing -...

[spiderarms]

Was Messier tough? Yes, but would he have been if he wasn't getting DOUBLE protection? He had the Refs watching out for him because of his high calibre play but he also had his own bodyguards (Marty Mac, Semenko etc.).

Was he dirty? Yes, played the game with an edge, but this could be said of some other star players as well who had the drive to win.

In another setting, another time, he would have been "straightened out" big time. If he was playing in the 60's and 70's he would have had to fight his own battles in which case I'm sure he would have been much more selective about his aggressions.

[lilburtis9363]

Dirty without a doubt; tough definitely, but nothing major just more of a hot-head. He never hesitated to stick up for himself and his teammates which I liked a lot, but the elbows and dirty hits (aside from Modano) I was not a fan of. Very rare type of player, now-a-days. He was a great team leader and exactly what a captain should be.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Mess was a dirty dog til he became a Ranger, always tough!

[ewen21]

He's kind of like Wendel Clark only Messier was a winner and he didn't jump nearly as many guys

[mikebflorida]

Originally Posted by ewen21

He's kind of like Wendel Clark only Messier was a winner and he didn't jump nearly as many guys

Ouch

I would never compare him to Clark, I think Messier was a dirty player, a lot different than Clark, if you pissed Clark off, he'd drop the gloves and beat the crap out of you where Messier would throw gloved punches, use his elbows, stick, etc, I think that's a big difference.

[mikebflorida]

Thanks for the responses fellas.

When people call him tough, it makes me want to vomit.

I've just never been a fan of dirty players, I despise them, especially when they get away with so much and aren't properly held accountable and I don't think Messier ever was. Marty beat him down twice but the linesmen bail him out both times, it would have been nice to see Marty give him a Dave Brown on Jim Kyte style beating.

[blockerpunch]

Mark Messier is one of my favorite players of all time, but there are definitely some things about him that I do not care for.

Messier was a straight up nasty competitor and would do anything it took to win. Not tough as a fighter, but he played a rough and tumble game. Maybe the most ruthless superstar to ever play the game in terms of his questionable tactics. He was the type of guy who used a brutal cheap shot to send a "win at all costs" message to other teams, it was his brand of intimidation. Did he not drop Doug Wilson with a brutal shot in the playoffs in the late 80's? I seem to recall that although I haven't been able to find the clip.

Whenever I read about how Gordie Howe played it always reminds me of Messier, anyone who has seen Gordie would you say that they are comparable? Both major superstars who lead their clubs, would get nasty with the elbows and are overrated in the fighting department?

Here's a Messier cheap shot that was straight up brutal:

Mark Messier elbow on Vladimir Kovin - YouTube

How many games would he get for that in today's NHL?

I always liked Messier, super talented, great leader etc. but I definitely would have liked to have seen him back more of these antics up with his fists. Seems like a bad guy in a movie he gets his hired goons to hold a guy so he can punch them.

The one thing that really stuck in my craw about Messier in recent years is the fact that he tried to capitalize in business by exploiting the trend of head shots through his Messier Project with the hockey helmet he endorses to prevent concussions. http://www.cascadeicehockey.com/theepidemic/

This guy probably caused more concussions than his helmets will prevent
Kind of like Nilan going around trying to capitalize on the anti bullying trend right now. I'm not against a guy making money but it seems hypocritical coming from Messier.

[fansince65]

He was dirty as he!! , he was also so tough even his own team-mates feared him , his hatred of loosing triggered the demon in him .
His work ethic on the ice was the thing legends are made from , if he taught you did not pull your own weight during a game he was not above grabbing you between periods and threatening to beat the crap out of you if you didn't shape up .

I think every poster on this forum would have loved to have him on their favorite team ..

[Gunslinger]

He was both. I admit that I think his rep as "greatest captain of all time" is much overblown but there is no denying is ability as a player. Like Fan said, Mark was tough as nails and held his teamates accountable. He was both feared and respected by them. I remember an incident when he felt a team-mate (either Craig Simpson or Joe Murphy) was"nt pulling their weight and Mess grabbed him in the dressing room and lifted him up and pushed him into the wall to tell them to pick up the effort.