MacIntyre and Boogaard Vs. Your Top 10

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by I like Boobs

I never said that MacIntyre didn't have skill, not sure where you got that from? I said that his fighting abilities aren't nearly as good as others that preceded him. The reason they aren't as good is because he relies on his overwhelming size to dominate fights. I'm not sure how that's up for debate?

Look at the fights they had against each other - were these supposed to determine the heavyweight championship? The first one was okay, the second one was a yawner.

I like watching him for what's left in the game today, but he's the best of an unimpressive bunch. He hits like a truck though.

Has MacIntyre ever played more than 65 games in a season in any league? I don't think he has... And he's lucky if he hits double digits in fights.

I'm not saying he's not good, he has talent, I just don't know how anyone can compare either of these guys to all time greats. They just don't have the sample size, the staying power or the playing ability to be considered.

Could they win? Sure anyone can win in a fight, but it's just opinion/speculation, and neither guy impressed me enough long term to really ever be given an all time status. MacIntyre doesn't even have 50 fights in the league!

I'd rather watch a Probert, Wilson, Gillies, Playfair, etc... tape than I would of Boogard and MacIntyre.

Just my opinion.

I would debate that and do it easily. Like Killah said, MacIntyre throws with both arms and he throws a variety of punches. Saying hid fighting abilities are not as good as others before him is based on nothing but the fact he is big. Why should he be punished for that?

As for fights they had against each other, should we belittle Probert and Wilson because their fight was worse than both Mac vs Boogard fights? If anything those fights prove MacIntyre does have as much skill as others before him as he made a nice adjustment in round 2 and threw more lefts.

There is some bias going on in this section in regards to new fighters. The era they play in should not count against them in any way. They don't have as many fights as a lot of guys from the 80's or 90's but Behn Wilson and his 77 fights is ranked in the top 3 by most and even number 1 all time by some. MacIntyre will never get anywhere near 77 fights in the NHL but Boogard came close so there is enough footage to rank him. I guess we haven't seen enough of Big Mac but I would like to know the cutoff for number of fights needed to be ranked.

With that being said, the talk of rankings is just a diversion from the question asked in the thread much like talk of Boogard and Mac not being able to play in certain eras. Boston Garden even said he was not saying they warrant top ten consideration, but asking how they would do against your top ten. To that I say MacIntyre would do just fine against any fighter you throw out there but Boogard would have some difficulties in some match ups because he was one dimensional. MacIntyre - Probert would be a great series. Mac would beat Behn Wilson. Brashear could come up with a plan against anyone and he fought them both. He was beating Mac in Brashear's last season when he took that rib shot. You would need a strong wrestler like Brash or Laraque to really give these guys a problem in a ten fight series. They could hang with anyone who wants to stand and trade with them.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by Killah_punk

First of all MacIntyre has very good fighting abilities. Sure the guy is huge but he's very technical. So say he isn't a skilled fighter I do not agree with. He switches hands better then most and his boxing skills are good. I think you might want to to go back and watch more of his fights.
As for great fights. You half to consider that when you pack the power that these two guys had not many are going to want to open up with these guys. It takes two to make an exciting fight. Plus MacIntyre had some great fights. Of course he's not going to have the same number of great fights as guys like Probert or Domi cause he won't have close to the number of total fights. Just watch these fights from MacIntyre and tell me he doesn't have great fights.

2003-2004
Jon "Nasty" Mirasty
Marc-Andre Roy

2004-2005
Graham Belak
Brad Voth
Colton Orr
Mitch Fritz

2005-2006
Jon "Nasty" Mirasty

2006-2007
Erick Lizon

2007-2008
Kevin Westgarth
Paul Crosty

2009-2010
Brian McGrattan
Jon "Nasty" Mirasty
Jeremy Yablonski

2010-2011
Raitis Ivanans x2

2011-2012
Eric Neilson

One thing I'll say for Mac he has devastating power in both hands as I have seen KOs/KDs coming from both hands he is a beast as was Boogie - If you r going to insert them as your go to Power forward and give them the regular compliment of shifts per game these two giants probably would be vulnerable at the end of a shift mid-way through the second period

[rondo]

Seems like for some reason people want to give Macintyre more respect than Boogaard when Boogaard was the one who laid out the better body of work in the NHL. He wreaked havoc on the northwest division and forced many of the teams on the west coast to buckle up and bring in a HW or two. With all due respect to Macintyre Who is a beast I feel Boogaard was the bigger, stronger and better fighter. Ya, Macintyre is a better with his left and can whack out anyone with it but it didn' t do him much good vs. Boogaard. I have Boogaard at 2-0-1 against Mac. Two inches taller and twenty pounds heavier made Boogaard the stronger fighter and this even called for Mac to fight him defensively. I also think Mac leaves his chin a litte more available than boogey did and was easier to hit. See Godard, McGrattan.

As for the question, to me its apples vs oragnes. I think it would be extremely difficult for any of those guys in the past to try and contain these beasts who would outweigh alot of them from 30 to 50 pounds and also have to give up 3-6 inches regularily.

Now to the other side of the argument. I don't think Mac nor boogey could have played a regular shift back in their generation.

[Killah_punk]

Originally Posted by rondo

Seems like for some reason people want to give Macintyre more respect than Boogaard when Boogaard was the one who laid out the better body of work in the NHL. He wreaked havoc on the northwest division and forced many of the teams on the west coast to buckle up and bring in a HW or two. With all due respect to Macintyre Who is a beast I feel Boogaard was the bigger, stronger and better fighter. Ya, Macintyre is a better with his left and can whack out anyone with it but it didn' t do him much good vs. Boogaard. I have Boogaard at 2-0-1 against Mac. Two inches taller and twenty pounds heavier made Boogaard the stronger fighter and this even called for Mac to fight him defensively. I also think Mac leaves his chin a litte more available than boogey did and was easier to hit. See Godard, McGrattan.

Fair points Rondo. I did my piece more specific to MacIntyre and in no way was that a slight to Boogaard. As for there fight series I did score it 1 win Boogaard 1 edge Boogaard and a edge for MacIntyre in their last fight. These two also fought in the WHL also but I've never seen the video and it was when Boogaard was a rookie and not a good fighter. As far as who is the better fighter Boogaard did have more of a chance to show what he had in the NHL. MacIntyre has a career record of 85-13-36 on DYG with the fights that were available. While Boogaard's record is 106-37-26. Both guys of course have huge power. Boogaard is credited with 14 TKOs and 2 KOs. Big Mac has 8 TKOs and 4 KOs. Boogaard has been TKO'd 4 times while MacIntyre has been TKO'd twice based on the footage available.
As far as playing ability goes these two are obviously are pretty limited and could not take a regular shift in the current NHL or the past NHL. But based on fighting skills i believe MacIntyre was just as skilled as many of the greats with great power in both hands then most. I don't even know how many players have 4 career KOs but i bet you could count on one hand. If MacIntyre or Boogaard played in the 80/90s I am pretty sure they would be dominate. Remember with no instigator rule back then these guys would be killing guys out there. Guys like Wilson, Probert and Brown didn't always fight guys who were good fighters. Part of their roles of enforcer was to make guys pay who messed with their teammates regardless of what role they played. If Macintyre or Boogaard were fighting guys like Jeff Beukeboom, Grant Jennings, Stephane Quintal, Warren Rychel, Kevin Dineen, Mike Eagles and Todd Harvey these guys would probably have broken faces. If these two fought in that era i bet they would have as many if not more TKO/KOs then Joey Kocur. In fact i believe MacIntyre has more career KO wins. That just my opinion. I know some of the old school guys might not agree but that's my 2 cents.

[edwardraffoni]

Originally Posted by cookie monster

I think Bob Probert, Dave Brown, Dave Schultz, Clark Gillies, Joe Kocur, Donald Brashear, Tony Twist, Terry O' Reily, and John Ferguson would fare just fine against those two.

They all played in a different time when you hit guys on the ice, No instigator protection and guys didn't stop because the linesman stepped in.

Much tougher men in those days...

I won't speak of the other fighters you mentioned, but as a fan that was around to see Ferguson play and fight, and see him at Foxborough Racetrack, he stood about 5' 11'' or 6'. He weighed about 190. For his era , he was one scary , talented dude. But I truly feel a guy like Ferguson would definitely get overwhelmed by Boogy or Big Mac. These two would just have too much of an edge in reach, weight, and power, for Ferguson to handle. When you're fighting these two you're fighting guys that are not only monsters, but monsters that are skilled fighters. These two would definitely be too much to handle for guys like Ferguson and Ted Greene of that era.

[mikebflorida]

Huge guys like Boogaard and Mac would be tailor made for upper cuts thrown by 3 of the meanest, most talented fighters in NHL history, Behn Wilson, Jim McKenzie, and Dan Maloney. Maloney is not in my top 10 but he threw vicious uppercuts.

Probert did well against the behemoths of his eras, Dave Brown was a behemoth himself and clobbered foes big and small, Kocur fought guys bigger than him his whole career and did very well, Larry Playfair had good size and strength and was plenty mean enough, Laraque, Sandy McCarthy, and Brashear did well against the giants and they weren't exactly tiny by comparison, and McSorely comes in last of this group, I don't think he would have fared real well against Boo and Mac unless he could just tie them up and eke out a draw.

I also give Mac the edge in terms of fighting skills, I've never really seen him lose many fights while Boogaard was vulnerable and lost a bunch of times being fairly one dimensional while Mac is pretty good with both hands.

With all that being said, Mac and Boogaard wouldn't even be in the NHL in the 70's or early 80's, you actually had to play hockey back then so it's a completely unfair comparison, it's like asking how Mike Tyson would fair against your top 10 or how Mirasty or Serge Roberge would do against NHL regulars.

[rondo]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Huge guys like Boogaard and Mac would be tailor made for upper cuts thrown by 3 of the meanest, most talented fighters in NHL history, Behn Wilson, Jim McKenzie, and Dan Maloney. Maloney is not in my top 10 but he threw vicious uppercuts.

Probert did well against the behemoths of his eras, Dave Brown was a behemoth himself and clobbered foes big and small, Kocur fought guys bigger than him his whole career and did very well, Larry Playfair had good size and strength and was plenty mean enough, Laraque, Sandy McCarthy, and Brashear did well against the giants and they weren't exactly tiny by comparison, and McSorely comes in last of this group, I don't think he would have fared real well against Boo and Mac unless he could just tie them up and eke out a draw.

I also give Mac the edge in terms of fighting skills, I've never really seen him lose many fights while Boogaard was vulnerable and lost a bunch of times being fairly one dimensional while Mac is pretty good with both hands.

With all that being said, Mac and Boogaard wouldn't even be in the NHL in the 70's or early 80's, you actually had to play hockey back then so it's a completely unfair comparison, it's like asking how Mike Tyson would fair against your top 10 or how Mirasty or Serge Roberge would do against NHL regulars.

Mike do you care to fill me in with Boogaards "bunch of losses". HW for the most part are pretty one dimensional. Exceptions being Probert, Mackenzie, Macintyre, McCarthy and a few others but I would like to see you post some videos of these guys scoring tkos, KO or even KD's from these guys with there weaker hands.

I have Boogaard at or around 47-11-8 give or take one from each column. He was only beat once real convincingly/ godard in his career. Laraque, Simon, Brashear all beat him but all made sure there fights ended as quickly as possible and fell/ slipped, cough cough in alot of their fights with boogaard.

Also want to clarify from previous post. I don't think Mac or Boogey would have walked through guys like Probert, Kocur, Laraque, Semenko, Twist, Brashear, Wilson, Brown, McSorely, Simon but once you get out of that upper echelon, there size would have been tough for most of the rest but thats not to say some other guys could have given them some troube in a fight here or there.

And Good luck to Dan Maloney at 6'1 200 lbs in landing an uppercut on these giants.

[Shoryuken]

Originally Posted by edwardraffoni

I won't speak of the other fighters you mentioned, but as a fan that was around to see Ferguson play and fight, and see him at Foxborough Racetrack, he stood about 5' 11'' or 6'. He weighed about 190. For his era , he was one scary , talented dude. But I truly feel a guy like Ferguson would definitely get overwhelmed by Boogy or Big Mac. These two would just have too much of an edge in reach, weight, and power, for Ferguson to handle. When you're fighting these two you're fighting guys that are not only monsters, but monsters that are skilled fighters. These two would definitely be too much to handle for guys like Ferguson and Ted Greene of that era.

A good point raised there and one I often mention myself - modern enforcers are professional fighters that play hockey unlike the likes of Ferguson who were professional hockey players that liked to fight. Subtle difference on the face of it, but actually quite a significant one.

As to where the enforcer role evolved from one to the other is open to debate..

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Huge guys like Boogaard and Mac would be tailor made for upper cuts thrown by 3 of the meanest, most talented fighters in NHL history, Behn Wilson, Jim McKenzie, and Dan Maloney. Maloney is not in my top 10 but he threw vicious uppercuts.

How does being bigger than your opponent make you tailor made for uppercuts? Boogard had 4 inches on Wilson and Mac has 3. Wilson is an all time great so I am sure he could find a way to land an uppercut or two in a ten fight series but these guys are in no way tailor made for an uppercut.

Jim McKenzie is one of the meanest fighters in NHL history? I would say quite the opposite.

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Probert did well against the behemoths of his eras, Dave Brown was a behemoth himself and clobbered foes big and small, Kocur fought guys bigger than him his whole career and did very well, Larry Playfair had good size and strength and was plenty mean enough, Laraque, Sandy McCarthy, and Brashear did well against the giants and they weren't exactly tiny by comparison, and McSorely comes in last of this group, I don't think he would have fared real well against Boo and Mac unless he could just tie them up and eke out a draw.

Probert would be great in a series against either guy. I would think he would find a way to win but it would be no cakewalk. Dave Brown never clobbered a fighter taller than him in the NHL. In fact, he never fought anybody taller or even the same size as him according to DYG. He always had a height advantage and usually a weight advantage. It is fair to wonder how he would handle looking up at someone for a change. Boogard would have to leave Brown's left free to throw his rights so I have a tough time thinking how that would go. Mac would throw lefts and sneak rights in and win a series against Brown. Mac could take a punch and come back later in the fight.

McCarthy is a good call to lump in with Brashear and Laraque as guys who would use their strength and inside fighting abilities to win a series. I wish I had seen more of Playfair to guess that one. He sure seemed tough enough to deal with either.

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

I also give Mac the edge in terms of fighting skills, I've never really seen him lose many fights while Boogaard was vulnerable and lost a bunch of times being fairly one dimensional while Mac is pretty good with both hands.

With all that being said, Mac and Boogaard wouldn't even be in the NHL in the 70's or early 80's, you actually had to play hockey back then so it's a completely unfair comparison, it's like asking how Mike Tyson would fair against your top 10 or how Mirasty or Serge Roberge would do against NHL regulars.

I find this last paragraph very wrong. Mike Tyson? He played in the NHL? I thought we were comparing NHL fighters.

You and others keep bringing up how these guys could not have played because you had to be such a great player but then you list Dave Brown as a great like he could play worth a shXt. I don't even want to hear about his goal totals being higher than the goons of today because the game has changed much more than just the fighting aspect. Dave Brown would be in the same boat as Mac or Boogey if he played now, if he was lucky. I see no reason to punish These two because of the state of the game.

[srehm1]

pesa-weren't grimson, kyte and Brian Curran all in that 6'5 range? I'm not sure about his weight but Brown was slim for a guy of his height. I think I saw him listed at 205 one time and I thought that was insane!

[Killah_punk]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Huge guys like Boogaard and Mac would be tailor made for upper cuts thrown by 3 of the meanest, most talented fighters in NHL history, Behn Wilson, Jim McKenzie, and Dan Maloney. Maloney is not in my top 10 but he threw vicious uppercuts.

Have you seen Steve MacIntyre's upper cut? It's one of the most devastating punches I've seen.

@1:34 Huge right upper cut

4 Steve MacIntyre fights from '08 Providence...

MacIntyre Beats Down Vandermeer - YouTube

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by srehm1

pesa-weren't grimson, kyte and Brian Curran all in that 6'5 range? I'm not sure about his weight but Brown was slim for a guy of his height. I think I saw him listed at 205 one time and I thought that was insane!

I thought I would have to do a lot of work for that information but DYG has the height +/- by every fight so I went through that and saw all green. What I failed to notice was that they left a blank space when they were the same size so I was wrong. Sorry about that. The players you mentioned were all his size.

[rondo]

Originally Posted by srehm1

pesa-weren't grimson, kyte and Brian Curran all in that 6'5 range? I'm not sure about his weight but Brown was slim for a guy of his height. I think I saw him listed at 205 one time and I thought that was insane!

grimsons always been listed at 6'6 and Kyte at 6'5. Not sure on curran. Grimson was also listed at or around 235 lbs during his Anaheim & king tenure's which made him much more formidable vs elite guys.

[Boston Garden]

I noticed this thread got a bit off course, but I wasn't making a point that Mac or Boogaard could play in the era of Probert, Brown, Wilson ect. I know they couldn't.

I will admit that it's a bit unfair seeing as fighters in the 70's and 80's early 90's had to be able to play a bit so they couldn't bulk up just to wreck players in fights.

However, as others have stated the era in which Boogy and Mac play in shouldn't be held against them nor should their height. My question was from a pure fight perspective not who's the better player, or so and so couldn't play in this era...or even how exciting their fights may be.

With all due respect to Probert and the consensus top 10, from a pure fighting perspective I think Boogy or Mac could hang with any of them....and if you twisted my arm I'd say they would probably win more times than not.

I know the sport has been watered down as time has gone on from a fighting perspective, but unless your a good technical fighter and can tie up Mac or Boogy...I don't see many being able to trade punches with them.

Just my opinion....

[mikebflorida]

I don't know how to chop up specific quotes, I've never learned that in all these years.

However, I'm feeling a little picked on so let me try to answer everything in one post.

I think Mac and Boo were very good fighters, anything I said that may have been disparaging was not intentional, they were both huge and had power but we are speaking in hypotheticals here so to assume that they would win a 10 fight series is just that, an assumption.

I have Boogaard ranked 22nd all time and feel Mac was a better fighter so I think he'd make the low teens when it's all said and done. I also have Godard in my top 20, he was a giant killer in my opinion. Those 3 from the more recent era were the best of the bunch, post lockout with honorable mention to Belak, DJ King, and some other guys who are/were very good, I just don't think any of them are top 10 material and thus I believe that most of the guys in my top 10 (probert, wilson, brown, laraque, mckenzie, mcsorely, brashear, playfair, kocur, mcarthy) would do just fine against them with the exception of mcsorely.

I mean, we're talking the cream of the crop of NHL tough guys and I listed why I think they would do well and some of them did very well against Boogaard already but that's not to say that Boo or Mac wouldn't win some of those fights either, I'm sure they would and might even score a few KO's and TKO's.

My assertion that they would be prone to uppercuts is because those 3 fighters I listed threw vicious, deadly uppercuts and because they are shorter, it would be a very good weapon to use against taller guys. It's just common sense. Probert could also throw nasty uppercuts and I've seen Playfair do it too.

The Mike Tyson analogy was just a joke so seriously, comparing 2 guys who didn't fight most of anyone's top 10 guys is kind of silly to me so I just threw it back a little.

I think Boo and Mac were monsters but not as good technically as my top 10 guys and my top 10 guys had the strength to handle those huge guys.

If you don't think Dave Brown would win a 10 fight series against either guy I want some of what you're smoking but I hope it doesn't make me sick. Brownie is number 2 or 3 on most guy's top 10 lists for a reason, he's one of the best in NHL history and could "clobber foes big or small" is what I wrote, not bigger because I know full well that there weren't many guys as tall or taller than Brownie in his era. Simon, Kite, Curran, are just a few and he did real well against them. (waiting for BBBB to post Simon vs Brown rd 2 for the 8,000th time ). Brown was one of the best ever and my money would be on him in any fight against ANY opponent........EVER.

The rest is hypothetical bullshyt. Assuming Mac would throw this or defend that way is just that, an assumption. You forget that he's fighting one of the meanest guys ever to lace up skates with one of the hardest left hands ever. You may be right but I have history on my side and Brownie handled them all, big, small, fat, thin, mean, nice, it didn't matter.

I like both guys and give them the credit they deserve but they don't break my top 10, ever. mac has the only chance and that is basically zero chance as he won't be fighting in the NHL probably ever again.

And no, I'm not posting all the videos of Boogaard's losses, I'm not going to trample on the man's grave just to prove a point but he did lose, he wasn't unbeatable at all and he lost to guys that would never make my top 10 so it's not even a debate. Boo was VERY good but not elite.