Lineage of the Heavyweight Champ & Top Ten Lists '75-'07

[Lars24]

Wow Merlin great job on that list been trying to find fault somewhere but can't. I think you are right on the money with Byers placing. Only thing I could suggest is if Rick Tocchet could have snuck in somewhere in either 86/87 or 87/88(He had to be very close to Top 10 in those years). I'll check out some of my tapes to see if I can come with concrete reasons why I think this. Helluva post Great work.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

Holmgren didn't beat Fotiu in 80/81. That was when Fotiu was with Hartford and they got double roughings, although punches were exchanged with Fotiu landing more. If we're even going to count that fight, it would have been a win for Fotiu. Holmgren eventually did get the better of Fotiu in 82/83.

That 82-83 fight was a nothing fight. I guess because Holmgren was on top he gets the decision but all he did was throw a few rabbit punches in tight and Fotiu just missed his jaw with a big left and fell down. I always have had it 3-1 for Fotiu if you count the double minors in Hartford and the nothing fight in 1983.
They also fought in the hallway to the dressing rooms under the stands allegedly in Philly one time but I don't know who won there. I just remember reading that Fotiu's skates were making sparks on the floor.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

A few bits of feedback:

re JBob: Fixed his team in 77-78, but I guess I didn't drop him enough that year. Seems like he should be off the list entirely. Any suggestions on someone to replace him that year? McIlhargey? Howatt?

re Poeschek 88-89: Well, he didn't beat a top 10 fighter his rookie year. It was a tremendous rookie year, but since he didn't have a landmark win, I went with fighters with a track record of a newbie (again, I was trying to not do this retroactively but have it be accurate for the time). But I wouldn't have a problem with him in place of Hunter/Ewen/Berube/Byers. If people think thats more appropriate, post it and I'll change.

Re Byers: I had him #10 in 87-88 and #7 in 88-89. He was a very good fighter with a great uppercut in the perfect role (i.e., playing 2nd fiddle to a HW like Miller). In 88-89 he only had one loss and had that famous TKO of Cochrane. In 87-88 he destroyed Berube & Rouse... had a very strong year. His power IMO made him scary enough to sneak on to some top 10s there in the late 80s.

Re Kocur: When would he have been #1? There was always Brown and/or Probert. What can you do?

Re Link: He's there.

re McPhee: Wow, I'm surprised several people think he is top 10! He only had 31 NHL fights total so he could only be ranked in 84-85 (basically rookie) or 85-86 seasons. He fought mostly middleweight type guys, had the great wars with Tocchet, lost to Kordic, draw with an ooold Nystrom. I dont know, I luv McPhee but I just didn't see him being able to displace one of the top 10 heavyweights for the year.

Re Nilan/Langdon: Hardest people to place. I got them both on during their most exceptional season, but that was it. It wasn't a case of trying to slight either (obviously, I love Darren), but each year going through, you think of guys and say "oh, well Langdon was good but these few guys were just downright scary that year" and I always think thats more important in rankings. Obviously, Nilan and Langdon could beat anyone in the top 10 at any given time, but there were always 10 guys I would less like to fight than them each year. They do much better with me in all time rankings... maybe thats just how I rank things.

Re clips/Nystrom-Fraser: I have no clips lol... just tapes. And no, I've never seen Nystrom-Fraser. But its safe to say they DID have a great war as per many accounts; whether it was an edge one way or the other I dont know.

Merlin,
Thanks for replying to my thoughts here as well as the others. Great effort and job again.
Jack

[2,5,10GameMatch]

I think McGill was a top10'er from 84-86, I see he's in there in 82-83 but that was only a partial season, he fought Playfair, Wilsonx2, Semenkox2, McSorleyx2, Probert, Fotiu, Kocur, Hunterx2, etc in those years(84-86) and hardly ever lost. He owned Kevin McClelland(who is in there)too.

McGill has always been vastly underrated, we must remember he played most of his career at 192 pounds and fought all the best fighters. It's too bad he never fought with Brown, they came within a 'snatch hair' of it one night, some stupid linseman stepped in too early.

Otherwise Merlin , I think you did an outstanding job there.

[turnash]

Great job and post Merlin.

A couple of things I would probably change. I n 85-86 Richter would not be in the top spot as he didn't fight as many top guys as Brown, having a draw with McSorley and loss to a rookie Probert.

Also, I think what Twist did in those years from 95-96 to 98-99 would easily garner the top spots those years. He was by far the MOST feared fighter with dominate results. During his tenure during that time frame he was without doubt considered the Heavyweight Champ. The way Twist either edged or beat Probert 3x when Probert was barely in his 30's show how dominate he was. I would have him as the top guy those years for impressive/dominate wins, his peers/media and fans all had him the Champ, and only 3 clear losses to Ewen, Huard and Leroux( no way McCarthy beat Twist..he got Twist off balance at the end and got the takedown...no punches involved). I can kinda see an argument for Brasher's activity in a couple years and the fact that he didn't lose alot, but Twist didn't have the shear number of fights due to the unmatched respect as a dominant fighter. Twist's demonstrated dominance/fear/and actual easy wins over some damn good fighters seems to be fading somewhat as the years pass...lol.

Overall though, one of the best posts I've seen, if not the best. Thanks for the time and effort.

[jgdeadrabbit]

Originally Posted by turnash

Great job and post Merlin.
Overall though, one of the best posts I've seen, if not the best. Thanks for the time and effort.

What he said.Serious.We all owe guys like you a lot for your dedication to our hobby[obsession?].

There are the guys like me that are pretty much devoid of anything informative to contribute and then there are the guys like you who posess a goldmine of information that they are willing to share.

Sincere thanks.

[BENNETTWOLF]

Just what i was thinking, and i thought my memory counted for something. Great job Merlin!!! Some of you guys are unreal and i salute u, the best i can hope to do is entertain.

[itsJ.Millertime]

Thanks for the memories Merlin. Your lists brought back some great times in my life viewing the great sport hockey used to be.

Keep up the great work, thanks again.

I thought Jay Miller should be ranked higher though.

[full force five]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

Re Holmgren: Its no secret I've always thought Holmgren was overrated as a fighter all time. A great power forward who was a very very good fighter. I just dont feel he was THAT good to be ranked as highly as he is. If someone wants to make a nice thread on a specific season or two, recommend a player to take off, and put it up to a vote; i'd be happy to make the change if it is the consensus.

He was def. not top 10 in 76-77 (losses to Fotiu and O'Reilly). I would say def. not in 77-78 (bad Beck/Fogolin losses; no especially big win). I would say def. not in 78-79 (8 fights, vs notable fighters: bad loss to Fotiu, split with O'Reilly, edged out by Holt). The argument would be for 79-80 (19 fights, lots of boring draws against great fighters IMO) and 80-81 (again 19 fights, beat Fotiu, etc). After that he was fighting a lot less and fewer primetime heavyweights. So those 2 years are where the case would be made... He's certainly close, but I just dont see who I would take out. And I think Secord beat him in 79-80, which eliminates the obvious choice for him to replace.

1979-80

Phil Russell
Brad Marsh
Eddie Johnstone
Dale Hoganson
Dave Lewis
Jere Gillis
Al Secord
Dave Taylor
Barry Beck
John Wensink
Robert Picard
Dave Hutchison
Dave Logan
Dave Wiliams
Harold Snepsts
Larry Playfair
Al Secord
(PLAYOFFS)
Pat Price
Ed Hospodar
Clark Gillies

1980-81
Dan Maloney
Laurie Boschman
Bob H. Kelly
Garry Howatt
Randy Holt
Willi Plett
Rob Ramage
Rob Ramage
Rob Ramage
Yvon Labre
John Gibson
Randy Holt
Al Secord
PLAYOFFS)
Kim Clackson
Michel Goulet
Willi Plett
Phil Russell


79-80 was a good year for Holmgren, he should be in the 10 that year with out question. Noteable wins over Gillies, Playfair, Hutchinson amoung others. I would rank him above Wensink. I'm not what the result of the fight they had that year, It might have be the one where they basically just hug each other for 5 min.

[turnash]

Merlin, Had some more time to digest your post and you did an outstanding job. You have really put a great effort into this Even the inclusion of Wells and Fraser into the early 80 rankings shows some great thought.
Besides my higher regard of Twist in a few years( a couple of post ago), I highlighted a few "changes" so to speak if I was to do my ranking. As you'll see , very few changes.

Great job.



1998-1999:

1) Donald Brashear, VAN
2) Tony Twist ***flip/flop Twist and Brash 3) Georges Laraque, EDM
4) Sandy McCarthy, TB/PHI
5) Stu Grimson, ANA
6) Paul Laus, FLA
7) Tie Domi, TOR
8) Krzysztof Oliwa, NJ
9) Peter Worrell, FLA
10) Rob Ray, BUF

* Patrick Cote drops Sandy McCarthy
* Bob Probert TKOs the rookie Scott Parker
* Tony Twist edges out the youngsters Georges Laraque and Peter Worrell
* Georges Laraque gets nice victories over Rob Ray and Stu Grimson

1997-1998:

1) Donald Brashear, VAN
2) Stu Grimson, CAR
3) Sandy McCarthy, CGY/TB
4) Tony Twist STL *** Twist to #1, Brash #2
5) Tie Domi, TOR
6) Darren Langdon, NYR
7) Jim McKenzie, PHO
8) Paul Laus, FLA
9) Rob Ray, BUF
10) Bob Probert, CHI

Notable Fights:
* Sandy McCarthy blows away Dan Kordic, dropping him
* Sandy McCarthy slightly edges out Tony Twist in a mediocre fight
* Bob Probert TKOs Darren Kimble and earns a win over Tie Domi

1996-1997:

1) Stu Grimson, HAR
2) [b]Tony Twist, STL ***flip/flop Twist and Grimson[/B]3) Bob Probert, CHI
4) Paul Laus, FLA
5) Sandy McCarthy, CGY
6) Tie Domi, TOR
7) Chris Simon, WAS
8) Donald Brashear, MON/VAN
9) Jim McKenzie, PHO
10) Dan Kordic, PHI

Notable Fights:
* Sandy McCarthy bloodies Ken Baumgartner in a one-sided fight
* Marty McSorley bests McCarthy in a marathon bout
* Chris Simon picks apart Todd Ewen
* Bob Probert gets a solid decision over Donald Brashear
* Tony Twist beats Bob Probert and Paul Laus solidly



1) Sandy McCarthy, CAL
2) Chris Simon, QBC
3) Stu Grimson, ANA/SJ
4) Gino Odjick, VAN
5) Tie Domi, WIN/TOR
6) Tony Twist, STL *** Twist to #3
7) Joey Kocur, NYR
8) Rob Ray, BUF
9) Craig Berube, WAS
10) Marty McSorley, LA

Notable Fights:
* Chris Simon defeats Dave Brown, bloodying him as part of a dominating second season
* Sandy McCarthy adds Cam Russell and Shane Churla to his TKO victim list
* Sandy McCarthy also does well again with Louis Debrusk
* Tony Twist defeats Stu Grimson
* Tie Domi earns a victory over Sandy McCarthy

1) Dave Richter, MIN/PHI ***Richter to #3
2) Dave Brown, PHI
3) Behn Wilson, CHI
4) Dave Semenko, EDM
5) Wendel Clark, TOR
6) Jim Kyte, WIN
7) Joe Kocur, DET
8) Chris Nilan, MON
9) Jay Wells, LA
10) Kevin McClelland, EDM

Notable Fights:
* Dave-Brown-Wells fight 3x in one game: edge Brown, TKO Wells, TKO Brown
* Jim Kyte scores a TKO win over Dave Brown
* Wendel Clark and Behn Wilson fight to a fantastic draw
* Bob Probert earns a slight victory over Dave Richter
* The great Probert-Coxe I battle
* Joey Kocur KOs Don Jackson
* Dave Semenko beats Tim Hunter, bloodying him
* Chris Nilan gets the better of Tim Hunter in a three-fight playoff series battle


1979-1980:

1) Clark Gillies, NYI
2) Stan Jonathan, BOS
3) Behn Wilson, PHI
4) Bobby Nystrom, NYI ***flip/flop Nystrom and Jonathan
5) Dave Semenko, EDM
6) Larry Playfair, BUF
7) John Wensink, BOS
8) Jimmy Mann, WIN
9) Terry O’Reilly, BOS
10) Al Secord, BOS

Notable Fights:
* Terry O’Reilly and Clark Gillies split a vicious five fight playoff series, although Gillies’ performance leads the Isles to victory
* Bobby Nystrom wins a clear victory over John Wensink
* Behn Wilson brutally KOs John Hilworth
* Jimmy Mann TKOs Larry Playfair (Playfair wins the 2nd match though)
* Al Secord KOs Jay Wells
* Dave Semenko makes his mark on the NHL, TKOing Sedlbauer among others
* Larry Playfair scores two good wins over Willi Plett

[Merlin401]

A few thoughts on your suggestions...

Re Richter/Brown: I think they were close so its not that big a deal, but here's why I didn't put Brown #1. He got exposed a few times during the season, and it was enough for me to keep him from the top spot for 1 more year. He got TKOd by Wells, TKOd by Kyte, outpointed by Hunter, and outmuscled by Beck. His fight card wasn't all that wonderful (better than Richters but nothing spectacular) and Richter was just murdering guys that year.

Re Nystrom in 79-80: I have no problem with Nystrom at #2... he was pretty scary that year. I'm leaving Jonathan over Wilson though, since Wilson did nothing that year (outside of the Hilworth KO). The two also drew twice so based on their track record I'd give the nod to Jonathan at this point.

Re Twist: This is an interesting one. Maybe you want to start a thread (I can put up a poll if you want). Grimson 96-97 scared me as a fan of another team like Twist 95-96 scared me. Thats why I made that choice (could be slightly biased by Grimson vs. Rangers like Churla and Langdon that year).

In 97-98 and 98-99 I feel Twist dropped off. He was fighting like 7 or 8 times a year (very low compared to competition), not fighting many great fighters, and not beating anyone down like he did the previous 2 or 3 years. Look at 97-98:

He jumped Ciccone, beat Nazarov, Cummins, Cote, Odelein, R. Simpson; draw with Vukota; slight loss IMO to McCarthy. Thats a pretty forgettable season to me. If it weren't for his reputation he wouldnt have made the top 10 (nevermind top 5) at all this year.

Thats why he only got the top spot 1 year from me (although 96-97 would be a pretty strong argument)

[turnash]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

A few thoughts on your suggestions...

Re Richter/Brown: I think they were close so its not that big a deal, but here's why I didn't put Brown #1. He got exposed a few times during the season, and it was enough for me to keep him from the top spot for 1 more year. He got TKOd by Wells, TKOd by Kyte, outpointed by Hunter, and outmuscled by Beck. His fight card wasn't all that wonderful (better than Richters but nothing spectacular) and Richter was just murdering guys that year.

Re Nystrom in 79-80: I have no problem with Nystrom at #2... he was pretty scary that year. I'm leaving Jonathan over Wilson though, since Wilson did nothing that year (outside of the Hilworth KO). The two also drew twice so based on their track record I'd give the nod to Jonathan at this point.

Re Twist: This is an interesting one. Maybe you want to start a thread (I can put up a poll if you want). Grimson 96-97 scared me as a fan of another team like Twist 95-96 scared me. Thats why I made that choice (could be slightly biased by Grimson vs. Rangers like Churla and Langdon that year).

In 97-98 and 98-99 I feel Twist dropped off. He was fighting like 7 or 8 times a year (very low compared to competition), not fighting many great fighters, and not beating anyone down like he did the previous 2 or 3 years. Look at 97-98:

He jumped Ciccone, beat Nazarov, Cummins, Cote, Odelein, R. Simpson; draw with Vukota; slight loss IMO to McCarthy. Thats a pretty forgettable season to me. If it weren't for his reputation he wouldnt have made the top 10 (nevermind top 5) at all this year.

Thats why he only got the top spot 1 year from me (although 96-97 would be a pretty strong argument)

I can see your reasoning on 97-98 and 98-99, but I guess I look at the inactivity as not many really wanted him after the previous seasons and I can't hold that against him. I just know that regardless of the inactivity he was without doubt the real champ those 2 seasons when his peers, coaches, GMs, fans etc. all regarded Twist the top guy in the league. Still would have to disagree that McCarthy beat Twist. I could go as far as to say draw with the an edge to McCarthy, but not a loss for Twist. In reality that was a crap fight that didn't meet expectations at all. I have it as a draw/crap fight.
Those 4-5 seasons with St Louis , Twist was soooo dominate in the way he manhandled guys. Having said that ,I see how you are basing this and understand your logic.

Still would take Brown over Richter. I wouldn't hold that tainted TKO Wells bout against Brown though as tat was a jumping and really an unfair fight. Richter fought next to nobody and didn't win against the 2 name guys on his card(McSorley and Probert).

[nyisles15]

Hey Merlin,
2 things, first, during the 01-02 season I would have thought Cairns would have been ranked much higer than 7. From what I remember, I don;t recall him losing very much that season. Also, Mick Vukota, he never cracked the top 10 during he prime??? That really surprised me although I don't remember hockey that much then but I always remembered him throwing them down. He had some great wins over Ray who was always in the top ten.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by nyisles15

Hey Merlin,
2 things, first, during the 01-02 season I would have thought Cairns would have been ranked much higer than 7. From what I remember, I don;t recall him losing very much that season. Also, Mick Vukota, he never cracked the top 10 during he prime??? That really surprised me although I don't remember hockey that much then but I always remembered him throwing them down. He had some great wins over Ray who was always in the top ten.

Re Cairns: I basically took the lists from the last 4 or 5 seasons from HF.com's voting public so thats what consensus was. He was coming off a nothing year (2 fights in 45 games) and had to re-prove himself, which he kind of did. Good wins against Ray, McCarthy. Nothing spectacular. Didn't beat anyone ahead of hiim in the rankings.

Re Vukota: He's in there. Not sure when you thought his prime was, but it was nowhere near when Ray was any good.

[peacemaker]

Merlin,
I spent the better part of Sat afternoon compiling notes on the top guys just from 79-80...
It was time consuming, and very difficult to come up with the rankings for the top 5.

I then learn about your list, and look at it, and your guys are the exact ones (with some slight variations in exact order perhaps) that I come up with....But you've done it for 15-20 seasons, and posted the notable fights to boot.
I've only been here a couple of years but this is by far and away the best post I've ever read on this site.
Amazing.