Lineage of the Heavyweight Champ & Top Ten Lists '75-'07

[jayc948]

Amazing effort Merls - I did some research throughout the list, all of the positioning seems right on the money to me...

[Merlin401]

A few bits of feedback:

re JBob: Fixed his team in 77-78, but I guess I didn't drop him enough that year. Seems like he should be off the list entirely. Any suggestions on someone to replace him that year? McIlhargey? Howatt?

re Poeschek 88-89: Well, he didn't beat a top 10 fighter his rookie year. It was a tremendous rookie year, but since he didn't have a landmark win, I went with fighters with a track record of a newbie (again, I was trying to not do this retroactively but have it be accurate for the time). But I wouldn't have a problem with him in place of Hunter/Ewen/Berube/Byers. If people think thats more appropriate, post it and I'll change.

Re Byers: I had him #10 in 87-88 and #7 in 88-89. He was a very good fighter with a great uppercut in the perfect role (i.e., playing 2nd fiddle to a HW like Miller). In 88-89 he only had one loss and had that famous TKO of Cochrane. In 87-88 he destroyed Berube & Rouse... had a very strong year. His power IMO made him scary enough to sneak on to some top 10s there in the late 80s.

Re Kocur: When would he have been #1? There was always Brown and/or Probert. What can you do?

Re Link: He's there.

re McPhee: Wow, I'm surprised several people think he is top 10! He only had 31 NHL fights total so he could only be ranked in 84-85 (basically rookie) or 85-86 seasons. He fought mostly middleweight type guys, had the great wars with Tocchet, lost to Kordic, draw with an ooold Nystrom. I dont know, I luv McPhee but I just didn't see him being able to displace one of the top 10 heavyweights for the year.

Re Nilan/Langdon: Hardest people to place. I got them both on during their most exceptional season, but that was it. It wasn't a case of trying to slight either (obviously, I love Darren), but each year going through, you think of guys and say "oh, well Langdon was good but these few guys were just downright scary that year" and I always think thats more important in rankings. Obviously, Nilan and Langdon could beat anyone in the top 10 at any given time, but there were always 10 guys I would less like to fight than them each year. They do much better with me in all time rankings... maybe thats just how I rank things.

Re clips/Nystrom-Fraser: I have no clips lol... just tapes. And no, I've never seen Nystrom-Fraser. But its safe to say they DID have a great war as per many accounts; whether it was an edge one way or the other I dont know.

[furiousBall]

Awesome job Merlin. One question...did Big Behn really break Babych's face twice? You've got that listed under 81-82 and 82-83. I only remembered one breakage of the Babych

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by bigjack

I don't think he was happy in Chicago. He was treated like a goon and given little icetime after showing in Pittsburgh that he had hands and could score 25 goals and 50 points. It's a good point!

That's very true. He was brought in to protect Bobby Orr, Stan Mikita and Cliff Koroll. Remember what Kelly said about the Paul Mulvey benchclearing incident... " If that guy(coach) told me to jump over the boards I would've knocked his teeth down his throat !!"

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by furiousBall

Awesome job Merlin. One question...did Big Behn really break Babych's face twice? You've got that listed under 81-82 and 82-83. I only remembered one breakage of the Babych

Babych was on the trading blocks when Behn wrecked him. He was damaged goods after that.

[battleship25]

[quote=Merlin401]A few bits of feedback:

re JBob: Fixed his team in 77-78, but I guess I didn't drop him enough that year. Seems like he should be off the list entirely. Any suggestions on someone to replace him that year? McIlhargey? Howatt?

McIlhargey

Re Kocur: When would he have been #1? There was always Brown and/or Probert. What can you do?

Well said. Kocur always thought he was tougher than Probie, but NEVER Brown !!

[bustoff]

Originally Posted by furiousBall

Awesome job Merlin. One question...did Big Behn really break Babych's face twice? You've got that listed under 81-82 and 82-83. I only remembered one breakage of the Babych

I think it was once and I was there when it happend. Total destruction of Babych's face and yeah, he was never the same.

[TTwist18]

Awesome job of compiling those stats! I'm going to have to be a homer and disagree with you in 1996-1997. Grimson's fight card isn't as good and he has more losses than Twist that year. Just the fights with Probert earn Twist that top spot over Grimson.

[BENNETTWOLF]

How bout a prime paul holmgren- circa say 1980. Does anyone else remember the article by john ferguson listing the nhl's top ten (led by jimmy mann), it had homgren in the bottom half saying something about his being able to "box, bob and weave on skates"............maybe i missed the 1 or 2 seasons he is in there and should reread the post....... maybe an oversight?...... maybe he just didnt deserve to be included? but he was defenitley a force for a while.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by battleship25

re JBob: Fixed his team in 77-78, but I guess I didn't drop him enough that year. Seems like he should be off the list entirely. Any suggestions on someone to replace him that year? McIlhargey? Howatt?

McIlhargey

Change made (and also deleted the duplicate mention of Behn Wilson-Babych, thanks)

Re Twist vs. Grimson 96-97: Grimson is #1 in 96-97 the same reason Twist is #1 in 95-96. Quite simply, that was by far the scariest person in the league. In both cases, other people had better winning percentages (McCarthy in both for example), but those two seasons were insane despite the odd loss or two.

Re Holmgren: Its no secret I've always thought Holmgren was overrated as a fighter all time. A great power forward who was a very very good fighter. I just dont feel he was THAT good to be ranked as highly as he is. If someone wants to make a nice thread on a specific season or two, recommend a player to take off, and put it up to a vote; i'd be happy to make the change if it is the consensus.

He was def. not top 10 in 76-77 (losses to Fotiu and O'Reilly). I would say def. not in 77-78 (bad Beck/Fogolin losses; no especially big win). I would say def. not in 78-79 (8 fights, vs notable fighters: bad loss to Fotiu, split with O'Reilly, edged out by Holt). The argument would be for 79-80 (19 fights, lots of boring draws against great fighters IMO) and 80-81 (again 19 fights, beat Fotiu, etc). After that he was fighting a lot less and fewer primetime heavyweights. So those 2 years are where the case would be made... He's certainly close, but I just dont see who I would take out. And I think Secord beat him in 79-80, which eliminates the obvious choice for him to replace.

[fish7]

Originally Posted by bustoff

I think it was once and I was there when it happend. Total destruction of Babych's face and yeah, he was never the same.

Where were you sitting? I was in 214, row A, and you could hear it up there

Any thought to Briain Sutter? 1980-81 through 82-83 he had over 230 minutes a year and lost very few fights. Also he scored 35,39, and 46 goals those three years

[Howatt8]

Holmgren didn't beat Fotiu in 80/81. That was when Fotiu was with Hartford and they got double roughings, although punches were exchanged with Fotiu landing more. If we're even going to count that fight, it would have been a win for Fotiu. Holmgren eventually did get the better of Fotiu in 82/83.

[Howatt8]

For 76/77, I would move Bert Wilson up a couple of notches seeing as that was the year he beat both Dan Maloney and Jack McIlhargey, two guys that are rated ahead of him for that season. Might even add those to the notable fights list.

I'd also add Gassoff's wins over Bridgman, Holmgren, and McIlhargey to the notable fights list for that season.

Another notable fight from that season would be the destruction of Dave Schultz by Paul Holmgren. Signified a changing of the guard in Philadelphia.

A notable fight from 75/76 might be Ken Houston breaking Dave Schultz's jaw, even though it was a bit of a cheap shot.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by Howatt8

For 76/77, I would move Bert Wilson up a couple of notches seeing as that was the year he beat both Dan Maloney and Jack McIlhargey, two guys that are rated ahead of him for that season. Might even add those to the notable fights list.

I'd also add Gassoff's wins over Bridgman, Holmgren, and McIlhargey to the notable fights list for that season.

Another notable fight from that season would be the destruction of Dave Schultz by Paul Holmgren. Signified a changing of the guard in Philadelphia.

A notable fight from 75/76 might be Ken Houston breaking Dave Schultz's jaw, even though it was a bit of a cheap shot.

Good suggestions and fine tuning. Made the changes, as I wasn't aware of the Wilson-Maloney fight's outcome. Thanks.

[Howatt8]

Anytime Merlin. Man, you did a helluva job on those lists. Must have taken you an awful lot of time and a heck of a lot of research. You really did a great f'ing job.