Lineage of the Heavyweight Champ & Top Ten Lists '75-'07

[FitzG]

On their best day Howe or Fontinato couldn't hang with Bruins Ferny Flaman. Howe calls Flaman the toughest defenseman he ever played against. 6'3" Jean Beliveau says the only player I worry about on the ice is Flaman,when I go near him i'm always looking over my shoulder. Sportswriter Ed Fitkin writes :"There are several good fighters in the NHL but the man i'd least like to tangle with,if I was an opposing player is Ferny Flaman of the Boston Bruins. He says, Ferny is one of those pier-8 brawlers,hard as the prow on a ship and possessor of a mean streak that turns him into a no-holds bared battler." Another wrote one night Kent Douglas decided he would take on Providence Reds player/coach Ferny Flaman,a man with the reputation of having never lost a fight.Big mistake,Flaman toyed with Douglas for a sec and then gripped him by the seat of his pants and the nap around his neck and casually hurled him into the net where his skates got tangled in the mesh. Douglas never bothered Flaman again." One ex-NHL ref I spoke with said that when Flaman went at it everyone just got the hell out of his way. He held all Bruin penalty minute records until O'Rielly came along. Flaman is in the HOF and currently scouts for the New Jersey Devils. If anyone wants the articles to back this up,send me a private email and i'll send them over. Videoguy also knows well of Flaman.

Originally Posted by EDDIESHORETOEBLAKE

Beautiful thread/post Merlin . . . here's my list from a thread done awhile back . . .

". . . Remember, this isn’t so much about who the best fighters were necessarily (in hindsight), but who were the “acknowledged” “Champs” of the league by peers, broadcasters, journalists, fans, etc. for the time frames . . .

In the 40s you had Black Jack Stewart . . .
The 50s, why don't we call Gordie Howe the "Champ", and Lou Fontinato a close second . . .
The early 60s had Orland Kurtenbach, with Terrible Ted Harris, the No. 1 contender . . .
The mid to late 60s saw, from most accounts, John Ferguson and then, perhaps Wayne Cashman . . .
The early 70s - Dan Maloney . . .
The mid 70s - Dave "the Hammer" Schultz and then Clark Gillies . . .
The late 70s – Gillies or Fotiu with a little bit of Nystrom or Jonathan thrown in and then Wilson
The early to mid 80s – Wilson or Playfair or Dave Semenko . . .
Mid 80s – Dave Brown, perhaps over (2) Jim Kyte and (3) Dave Richter(?)
The mid to late 80s to the early to mid 90s - (1) Probert, (2) Brown, (2a) Kocur, and for a year, maybe Troy Crowder . . . and for one game Tie Domi – at least he thought so . . . to a lesser degree, perhaps Marty McSorley staked a claim
The mid to late 90s . . . (1) Twist, (2)Simon, (2a) McCarthy, and (4) Grimson . . .
The late 90s to present . . . (1) Brashear, (2) Laraque and (3) Grimson . . .
. . . [this, I believe] for the most part, accurately reflect who the consensus "Champs" (and numbered "contenders") were for those periods of time???

BTW, I suppose if you had to break it down to a true linear lineage, I suppose it would be fair to say – Eddie Shore to Black Jack Stewart to Lou Fontinato to Gordie Howe to Kurtenbach to Ferguson to Cashman(?) to Maloney to Schultz to Gillies to Wilson to Playfair to Kyte(?) to Brown to Probert to Crowder to Probert to McCarthy(?) to Twist to Grimson(?) to Laraque to Brashear . . ."

[EDDIESHORETOEBLAKE]

Originally Posted by FitzG

On their best day Howe or Fontinato couldn't hang with Bruins Ferny Flaman. Howe calls Flaman the toughest defenseman he ever played against. 6'3" Jean Beliveau says the only player I worry about on the ice is Flaman,when I go near him i'm always looking over my shoulder. Sportswriter Ed Fitkin writes :"There are several good fighters in the NHL but the man i'd least like to tangle with,if I was an opposing player is Ferny Flaman of the Boston Bruins. He says, Ferny is one of those pier-8 brawlers,hard as the prow on a ship and possessor of a mean streak that turns him into a no-holds bared battler." Another wrote one night Kent Douglas decided he would take on Providence Reds player/coach Ferny Flaman,a man with the reputation of having never lost a fight.Big mistake,Flaman toyed with Douglas for a sec and then gripped him by the seat of his pants and the nap around his neck and casually hurled him into the net where his skates got tangled in the mesh. Douglas never bothered Flaman again." One ex-NHL ref I spoke with said that when Flaman went at it everyone just got the hell out of his way. He held all Bruin penalty minute records until O'Rielly came along. Flaman is in the HOF and currently scouts for the New Jersey Devils. If anyone wants the articles to back this up,send me a private email and i'll send them over. Videoguy also knows well of Flaman.

I can respect that, but let's face a few facts - I don't believe there is one of us on this site that has seen one of his fights, let alone enough of his fights to make an educated guess as to how he would have matched up with other tough guys in the league at the time . . . its essentially all hearsay . . . I've heard that both Howe and Fontinato were tough as nails . . . I just sort of plucked a couple of names out from that era based upon hearsay . . . I think it goes without saying that everyone sees fights differently, so how can we even guesstimate about how tough Flaman was when few, if any, on this site have even seen one of his fights . . .

[the bong]

Originally Posted by FitzG

On their best day Howe or Fontinato couldn't hang with Bruins Ferny Flaman. Howe calls Flaman the toughest defenseman he ever played against. 6'3" Jean Beliveau says the only player I worry about on the ice is Flaman,when I go near him i'm always looking over my shoulder. Sportswriter Ed Fitkin writes :"There are several good fighters in the NHL but the man i'd least like to tangle with,if I was an opposing player is Ferny Flaman of the Boston Bruins. He says, Ferny is one of those pier-8 brawlers,hard as the prow on a ship and possessor of a mean streak that turns him into a no-holds bared battler." Another wrote one night Kent Douglas decided he would take on Providence Reds player/coach Ferny Flaman,a man with the reputation of having never lost a fight.Big mistake,Flaman toyed with Douglas for a sec and then gripped him by the seat of his pants and the nap around his neck and casually hurled him into the net where his skates got tangled in the mesh. Douglas never bothered Flaman again." One ex-NHL ref I spoke with said that when Flaman went at it everyone just got the hell out of his way. He held all Bruin penalty minute records until O'Rielly came along. Flaman is in the HOF and currently scouts for the New Jersey Devils. If anyone wants the articles to back this up,send me a private email and i'll send them over. Videoguy also knows well of Flaman.

did you see some of the 50's early 60's guys live ? we old timmers would love to hear about them from someone who was there!

[bigjack]

As much as I hate to say it being a Ranger Fan, I always annoyed at the long fuses possessed by Fotiu and Beck. I'm sure Islander fans can relate with Clark Gillies. I always admired Bob Nystrom because he always was up for the Ranger games even as he got older and Gary Howatt was a little nut who was also intense. On the MSG website, Stan Fischler is ranking the top 15 metropolitian fighters and agreed that Fotiu was too nice of a guy and really had to be pissed to want to hurt someone. I remember calling Stan once at his home and asking him about Nick and mentioning his lack of fire and he agreed. He felt that if Nick had two things: the fire of a young Bob Probert and a coach like Don Cherry, he would have been an animal. His best year was 1978-79 and who was his coach, Freddy Shero. He goes to Calgary as an old man and Badger Bob Johnson who liked fighters was his coach and in 1986-87 Nick had 145 PIM'S in only 42 games. Stan felt that Herb Brooks ruined Nick as an enforcer. Remember one year Brooks had Nick down to 90 PIM'S in 72 games and Don Blackburn in Hartford also wasn't a fighters coach. If Nick played for Al Arbour, Don Cherry, Roger Neilson or especially Glen Somnor, forget about it. Freddy Shero told Stan Fischler that Fotiu was the strongest player he ever had even stronger then Beck and Holmgren and the best boxer but was just too nice a person. So in terms of effectiveness Nick loses major points because he was not doing his job. George McPhee replaced him as the number one enforcer in 1983 with the Rangers because McPhee had that fire and guts! Unfortunately George was 170 lbs and had a bad back but he was tough.

[FitzG]

You're 100 % right. Without video it is all hearsay but growing up in Boston i've been able to talk to alot of people who remember him around here. Videoguy may have more knowledge on Flaman than me but I do have 4 or 5 great articles from his day that i'd be more than happy to email if anyone's interested. I've been trying to track down some video but it's tough.

Originally Posted by EDDIESHORETOEBLAKE

I can respect that, but let's face a few facts - I don't believe there is one of us on this site that has seen one of his fights, let alone enough of his fights to make an educated guess as to how he would have matched up with other tough guys in the league at the time . . . its essentially all hearsay . . . I've heard that both Howe and Fontinato were tough as nails . . . I just sort of plucked a couple of names out from that era based upon hearsay . . . I think it goes without saying that everyone sees fights differently, so how can we even guesstimate about how tough Flaman was when few, if any, on this site have even seen one of his fights . . .

[bigjack]

It's a shame that we couldn't see the old timers. Suppossedly even Andy Bathgate was a good fighter. Same with the WHA, would love to see the New England- Minnesota brawl in 1975. I have heard 4 minutes of audio on the Brass Bonanza but it would be great to see the legends.

[FitzG]

I'd have to drag my dad on here for that which would be tough at age 78. (you want me to go on line and talk about Flaman's fights ?)

Originally Posted by the bong

did you see some of the 50's early 60's guys live ? we old timmers would love to hear about them from someone who was there!

[the bong]

Originally Posted by FitzG

I'd have to drag my dad on here for that which would be tough at age 78. (you want me to go on line and talk about Flaman's fights ?)

my moms in news chat rooms all the time at 82 ! put the old man on

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by FitzG

I'd have to drag my dad on here for that which would be tough at age 78. (you want me to go on line and talk about Flaman's fights ?)

Age 78, must mean he goes back to the 1940's. My ole man always tells me the best hockey played was when there were only 6 teams and each team played each other 14 times. I only go back to 1969 so I missed that era but would love to hear about the 6 team era.

[Bob Probert]

I just re-read this. One of the best posts on here imo

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by bigjack

As much as I hate to say it being a Ranger Fan, I always annoyed at the long fuses possessed by Fotiu and Beck. I'm sure Islander fans can relate with Clark Gillies. I always admired Bob Nystrom because he always was up for the Ranger games even as he got older and Gary Howatt was a little nut who was also intense. On the MSG website, Stan Fischler is ranking the top 15 metropolitian fighters and agreed that Fotiu was too nice of a guy and really had to be pissed to want to hurt someone. I remember calling Stan once at his home and asking him about Nick and mentioning his lack of fire and he agreed. He felt that if Nick had two things: the fire of a young Bob Probert and a coach like Don Cherry, he would have been an animal. His best year was 1978-79 and who was his coach, Freddy Shero. He goes to Calgary as an old man and Badger Bob Johnson who liked fighters was his coach and in 1986-87 Nick had 145 PIM'S in only 42 games. Stan felt that Herb Brooks ruined Nick as an enforcer. Remember one year Brooks had Nick down to 90 PIM'S in 72 games and Don Blackburn in Hartford also wasn't a fighters coach. If Nick played for Al Arbour, Don Cherry, Roger Neilson or especially Glen Somnor, forget about it. Freddy Shero told Stan Fischler that Fotiu was the strongest player he ever had even stronger then Beck and Holmgren and the best boxer but was just too nice a person. So in terms of effectiveness Nick loses major points because he was not doing his job. George McPhee replaced him as the number one enforcer in 1983 with the Rangers because McPhee had that fire and guts! Unfortunately George was 170 lbs and had a bad back but he was tough.

Merlin,
Awesome job with the thread,
I clicked on this post to illustrate my unbiased nature. Here are two of my favorites of alltime and yet I give an honest and unbiased view on both.
I've heard that I'm biased about Fotiu here or others. This should end those rumors as everyone can plainly see!
You can have your favorites but never be blinded by your loyalty!
Always give an unbiased opinion whether it's popular or not!

[spiderarms]

Great job Merlin. Brings back alot of great memories for me. I LOVE OLD TIME HOCKEY!!!

[Odjick29]

Very impressive post - I'm amazed at how accurate your rankings are if I were to compare mine...Hopefully others can expand upon key fights during those seasons which can maybe lead to a Hall of fame in terms of battles per season...

[Humpzilla]

Excellent post, Merlin. This should definitely get a sticky!

I'd also think it'd be great to have a fighter Hall of Fame on this site. It'd be something pretty interesting to do during future off-season's.

[OBA]

Wow!

What a Great list, and job you did to put this together.

If I may ask you Merlin:

Did the Rick Tocchet of 1992-93 get any consideration?

Not that he could have been on your list for this year, because I would not know who to take out. Just wondering...

Thanks.