Lineage of the Heavyweight Champ & Top Ten Lists '75-'07

[gillies]

Originally Posted by the bong

..fontinato played before instigater rule ! in the 6 team days everybody had to be ready to go. it was said 'leapin lou' built his rep on jumping guys from behind (he tried that one time to many with howe!) .

i heard gordie was one tough s.o.b.... bring back oldtime hockey!!! benchclearing brawls..etc...etc....

[gillies]

Originally Posted by the bong

..fontinato played before instigater rule ! in the 6 team days everybody had to be ready to go. it was said 'leapin lou' built his rep on jumping guys from behind (he tried that one time to many with howe!) .

i say, bring back oldtime hockey..benchclearing brawls etc..

[the bong]

Originally Posted by gillies

i say, bring back oldtime hockey..benchclearing brawls etc..

my dream is that time travel is created one day (could happen) put me in canada 1950's season tic 6 team nhl . i dont care if i were young or old give me one year old time hockey i would sell my soul like faust !

[kidcollins]

Great post with a lot of thought. Here I go with my 2cents. Dave Semenko was not KO'd by Playfair! By all accounts, and Semenko's too, Larry buckled Dave with a great shot/shots. Semenko said that was the hardest he was ever hit, no friggin KO. As for lineage, Semenko was widely reguarded througout the leaugue as the Champ for let say 80-83ish. Yes Wilson, and Playfair were every bit as tough, arguably tougher, but not nearly as busy as Semenko. Semenko was goin with everyone at that time, and most NHL players, coaches, GM's would have probley called him the champ at that time.

[LAKINGSNUT]

my god, i can't believe i didn't find this thread til now, wher the 'F' have i been???kick ass job Merlin...one can only imagine the amount of time it took you to find old stats, PIM's, FM's and accounts of wins and losses from the 40's and 50's...maybe there's some place where this is posted for all too see, but, i ain't found it!!!

i do think Grimson should be co-champ in either mid or late 90's, and Matt Johnson should be considered for '03-'04...

[turnash]

Originally Posted by kidcollins

Great post with a lot of thought. Here I go with my 2cents. Dave Semenko was not KO'd by Playfair! By all accounts, and Semenko's too, Larry buckled Dave with a great shot/shots. Semenko said that was the hardest he was ever hit, no friggin KO. As for lineage, Semenko was widely reguarded througout the leaugue as the Champ for let say 80-83ish. Yes Wilson, and Playfair were every bit as tough, arguably tougher, but not nearly as busy as Semenko. Semenko was goin with everyone at that time, and most NHL players, coaches, GM's would have probley called him the champ at that time.

Kid....
I have always been a big Semenko fan, but I would have to say he was always behind Playfair and Wilson when talking of league champ.Having seen that era ,I think Wilson was considered co-champ 80-81 with Playfair.Then fell to #2 as Playfair was considered champ thru the 84-85 season then Brown took over.

I would say that he was easily considered number one on the west coast and had some mention as #1 in the league,which is still very impressive with the likes of Fotiu,Wilson,Gillies,Jonathan,Playfair and Nystrom in the league.

The 79-80 season was the one year I think a case could be made for Semenko, Wilson ,Jonathan or Playfair to be considered champ since Fotiu only had 1 fight (which by most accounts he lost) and Giliies only had a couple until the Playoffs (losing 2x to O'Reilly).

Also as far as comparing the three in total fights from 80-81 to 82-83, it is true Semenko had more fights than Wilson, but Playfair actually had a few more than Semenko.

[Corpse]

Nice topic Merlin, I to would like to see Jeoy Kocur make this list at some point even it was in the early 90's. Alot of guys wouldn't fight him in those days and if they did they would hold on for dear life. Great job though.

[Merlin401]

Thanks everyone for the input and thoughts... just a few comments on the most recent names to pop up for consideration:

Semenko: First off fair point on the TKO/KO as sometimes these headline fights get distorted after you haven't seen them in a while. The point, though, is that it was an impact win that really made you take notice of Playfair. The fact is that after that fight you couldn't legitimately put Semenko ahead of Playfair.

The 79-80 season was the one year I think a case could be made for Semenko, Wilson ,Jonathan or Playfair to be considered champ since Fotiu only had 1 fight (which by most accounts he lost) and Giliies only had a couple until the Playoffs (losing 2x to O'Reilly).

Now this is an interesting continuation of the Semenko argument as this was the year before the Playfair TKO. Fotiu without a doubt lost his share of the title this year, but it wasn't immediate. No one knew he was going to have one measly fight in the fall and he was coming off what was probably his best year. Also Gillies did lose those pair to O'Reilly in the playoffs but I think those 5 fights were looked at as more of one big event, no? The overall impression was "wow, Gillies really handled Terry this series and helped the Islanders finally get over the hump of dealing with the pack mentality of the Bruins." Terry was game and won some but his face and the series outcome would tell a different tale and I think thats what is remembered more. So those were my reasons for leaving Semenko out.

Joey Kocur: To me he was always 2nd fiddle to Bob Probert. I think thats fair to say for his entire career. In 89-90 with no Probert he just came off the awful TKO loss to Raglan at the end of the previous season so I think there were some cracks in the armor showing. If you want to say he was co-champ with Brown that time, I guess its fair to say. I was trying to trim it down to the bare essentials more or less.

Stu Grimson: Every year he seemed to have 1 or 2 bad losses and there was always someone who wasn't losing at all it seemed. Also he always seemed to lose to the key people he needed to beat for the throne IMO. I'd say he was #2 for a while but I couldn't find a place for him to be #1. 01-02 of course he got killed by Laraque and Mccarthy. In 00-01 he got TKOd by Parker and dropped yet again by Probert. Ditto in 99-00: He still couldn't solve Bob Probert when all the new guys came in and made a name for themselves destroying him 5 years ago. In 98-99 he lost yet again to McCarthy, which keeps him away from the top spot again IMO. So I just can't justify putting him as co-champ in any given spot.

Lastly, 03-04 is not done for sure but I think in the end it will be written as another year of dominance for Brashear. If you read those "players choice for the champ" things, there's like one vote for Cairns, one or two for Johnson and the rest are split between Brash and Laraque. NO matter how much we are looking for a new champ, someone has to beat him I think...

[kidcollins]

You know it amazes me that the only Islander that would go Semenko was Howatt. We had a great rivalry with them playing them 2 years in a row in the finals. You'd think either big bad Gillies, or lightning quick Nystrom would have challenged Semenko when they felt the Cup being taken away from them. Something to swing the momentum. But no such luck. I wish these guys would have fought, cause it sure would add to Semenko's reputation.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by kidcollins

You know it amazes me that the only Islander that would go Semenko was Howatt. We had a great rivalry with them playing them 2 years in a row in the finals. You'd think either big bad Gillies, or lightning quick Nystrom would have challenged Semenko when they felt the Cup being taken away from them. Something to swing the momentum. But no such luck. I wish these guys would have fought, cause it sure would add to Semenko's reputation.

Just like thinking of all the games the NYI played vs. the NYR and no Beck or Fotiu vs. Gillies or Nystrom. Even if it had happened though, both of them were getting older at that point and past their primes so I'm not sure it would have proved too much. Although, it sure would have been a good win as beating any one of those 3 is a notable acheivement at any time...

[gillies]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

Just like thinking of all the games the NYI played vs. the NYR and no Beck or Fotiu vs. Gillies or Nystrom. Even if it had happened though, both of them were getting older at that point and past their primes so I'm not sure it would have proved too much. Although, it sure would have been a good win as beating any one of those 3 is a notable acheivement at any time...

good point, merlin..would have loved to have seen these guys go.. if i remember correctly,not many guys wanted to go with big barry.. beck was a monster physically..

[Daaaa B's]

Originally Posted by the bong

.........and going way back to the 30's 40's and early 50's when men were men, legends spreg cleghorn (who claimed in a 60's stan fishler book to of been in 50 "stretcher case fights") the great red horner who led the nhl in pims 8 times and knock ted lindsay cold after his career ending hit on ace baily. the news paper report stan refered to said that ted lindsay "laid in a pool of his on blood 6 feet in diameter" i no longer have the book but remember these details very well !

I think you've been hitting your name too much. It was Eddie Shore that hit Bailey and then got hit by Horner.
You are correct about Horner and Cleghorn being the champs back in their day along with Shore from everything I've read or heard. Another tough one back then was Babe Seibert.

[bigjack]

Great analysis, It probably started with Red Horner in the 20's and 30's, BlackJack Stewart and Muzz Patrick, 30's -40's and Rocket Richard 40's -50's.
We should probably mention the two best in the WHA being Jack Carlson and Nick Fotiu. Carlson was an animal before hurting his back.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Great analysis, It probably started with Red Horner in the 20's and 30's, BlackJack Stewart and Muzz Patrick, 30's -40's and Rocket Richard 40's -50's.
We should probably mention the two best in the WHA being Jack Carlson and Nick Fotiu. Carlson was an animal before hurting his back.

Good point on the WHA, I never even though about doing that league. Carlson is probably going to get the nod over Fotiu for most of the league's existence due to head-to-head. Semenko in the WHAs last few years deserves a mention. How was Kim Clackson in this league, btw? He had that 3 or 4 fight series with Fotiu in 75-76 which I head was rather even but I don't know any details.

[Baumgartner]

Tony Twist is definitely required on this list. I know that his teammate, Kelly Chase, once said that when Twister dropped his gloves the Blues bench would quietly be cheering for his opponent 'not to get injured'. That is how dangerous and respected Twister once. He was one scary dude.