Lineage of the Heavyweight Champ & Top Ten Lists '75-'07

[Nightmare]

My 90s list...fighters rated according to the time-frame in the 90s that saw them at the top of their game.

1. Bob Probert(best ever, king of the early to mid 90s at least)
2. Tony Twist(reigned terror over the league for second half of decade)
3. Joey Kocur(based on his early 90s prime and resulting reputation...3x enforcer of champion teams)
4. Marty McSorley(had a longevity ensuring a spot on the all time lists)
5. Sandy McCarthy(downright dominating in his prime)
6. Craig Berube(consumate tough guy...true enforcer to the bone)
7. Chris Simon(young and focused, an absolute menace)
8. Todd Ewen(held elite status throughout the decade)
9. Stu Grimson(did stint as champ, one of the scariest guys on ice)
10. Tie Domi(a hockey icon during this decade)
11. Ken Baumgartner(highlight-reel brawler)
12. Darren Langdon(incredible technical fighter...defensive counterpuncher)
13. Jim McKenzie(big-time southpaw)
14. Gino Odjick(staple top-notch fighter throught his career)
15. Brent Severyn(big strong fighter...always a contender)
16. Paul Laus(LOVED the uppercut)
17. Rob Ray(low because i'm distracted by the awful young Ray...has generated alot of attent. towards the fight game)
18. Mick Vukota(pure goon, one of my favs)
19. Donald Brashear(todays champ got his start amongst the likes of some legends listed here...still going strong, says alot)
20. Shane Churla/Reid Simpson(consumate 90s tough guys)

I opted to omit guys like Dave Brown and John Kordic because I felt their best days were behind them in the 90s. On the other end of that, Oliwa and Matt Johnson had'nt quite blossomed in their younger days. Eric Cairns was terrible when he broke in. Other honorable mentions: Dan Kordic, Rudy Poeschek...trying to think of guys who had long, good stints during the 90s help me out here...

[Juha82]

1.B.Probert(no doubt, again better card than Kocur)
2.L.Byers(strong card, win over Gillies)
3.J.Miller(excellent card)
4.J.Kordic(wins over Byers and Miller)
5.K.Baumgartner(great rookie-year, a lot of great bouts)
6.M.McSorley(good card, wins over Hunter and Playfair)
7.J.Kocur(full of wins, but not the best card)
8.D.Brown(good card, not much of fights)
9.C.Nilan(you see a draw with Brown)
10.J.Paterson(you see win over Fotiu, some good shows)

Honourable mentions;

1.G.Donnelly(impressive card)
2.B.McRae(again active but losses too much)
3.R.Tocchet
4.C.Neely
5.G.Cochrane

[deebodeez2]

joe kocur was on top,,, for a few yes, and his knock-out power should put him higher than where he is, i totally disagree with the rankings here, who did'nt he beat,, come on,

[shanahan1499]

I dont understand why it says that Brashear is champion from 99-06 and Laraque is champion from 00-current. Is it a typo or am I just not understanding this?

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by shanahan1499

I dont understand why it says that Brashear is champion from 99-06 and Laraque is champion from 00-current. Is it a typo or am I just not understanding this?

if you notice some of the champs overlap, ie McCarthy and Twist

[bobberino]

Tony Twist - at one point could not buy a fight
Tie Domi - hardest head on the planet
Mike Peluso - a wild man w/ Hawks and Devils
Donald Brashear - fought the toughest guys in the 90's, still going
Mick Vukota - his name even sounds TOUGH!
Ken Baumgartner - the Ken doll was always game
Todd Ewen - A true ENFORCER
Rob Ray - Real fan fav.
Stu Grimson - the best nickname in sports "GRIMREAPER"
Gino Odjick - Tough Guy who fought everybody
Joey Kocur - The hardest right punch in NHL history JMO
Paul Laus - a very impressive win/loss record
Craig Berube - The Chief, the fastest puncher ever?
Shane Churla - "Chainsaw", Great fighter!
Peter Worrell - had some great battles in a short career.
Link Gaetz - may have been Champ if not for accident.
Bob Probert - the best I have ever seen JMO...
I know I forgot others, getting late, C-YAH

[matty_hull24]

Bob Probert - Ulitmate Tough Guy
Joey Kocur - Great Right Hand
Wendel Clark - Took On The Best, All Heart
Derek Boogaard - Massive Fighter
Stu Grimson - The Grim Reaper Takes On All Comers
Shane Churla - Never Gived Up During Some Fights
Dave Brown - Another Tough Guy Good With Both Hands
Tim Hunter - Took On The Best Came Out On Top Some Fights
Tie Domi - Show Boater But Wins The Fans
Kelly Buchberger - Punching Bag Material Although Took On The Best
Darren Langdon - Good Fighter Of New York
Rob Ray - Sabres Tough Guy From Middle 90's To Early 2003-04

Memorble Mentions I Did Not Really See These Fighters

Tiger Williams
Terry O'Reilly
Dave Schultz
Behn Wilson

[srehm1]

82-83 season

Nick Fotiu is ranked at 6 and he had only 5 fights that year. He went 3-1-1 in those fights. He beat Giroux, Hunter, and Nilan while losing to Paul Holmgren.

Paul Holmgren is listed at 4-0-0 in 9 fights including wins over #6 Fotiu, Plett, and Howatt. He is out of the top 10?

Wilson and Gillies are 2 and 3 that year respectively but only had 2 fights each.

Playfair is at #2 but had a 2-2-0 record in 11 fights.

I know that era is static at best and footage is scarce but why no love for Holmgren?

Scott Stevens was in his rookie year and fought 14 times with a 4-2-1 record. No love.

A young Kevin McClelland was in his first full year with Pittsburgh and went 6-0-0 in 7 fights. No love.

Don Jackson was 5-2-2 in 11 fights beating Ryan Walter, Jimmy Nill, and Jim Peplinski 3 times while losing to Jay Wells twice. No love.

Big John Wensink was 2-0-2 in 10 fights with wins against R. Higgins and R. Holt. No love.

While we're at it how about Ron Friest? He went 4-0-3 and was more of a LHW but still no love?

I know that many players can be thrown in the discussion. You can probably make a case for guys like Paul Baxter, Jimmy Nill, Carl Mokosak -- even Bennet Wolf for that matter. I'm only providing some food for thought and trying to shed a little light on an era that is very murky.

I've done a lot of research on this era and found that your better fighters did not fight with the reckless abandon of fighters during the heavyweight era. A good fighter during this era would probably have maybe 7 or 8 fights. Semenko is #1 and had an 8-1-2 record in 14 fights during the 82-83 season. That's probably a lot for an elite fighter at this time.

Just trying to stir up some debate and provide a clrearer picture to look at when you stroll through memory lane in Remember When. I'd love to hear any arguments for or against these players.

[gazza51]

The most two dominant fighters ever in the NHL: Dave Brown and Geogres Laraque.

Some more of my favourites from past years:
Tony Twist
Rob Ray
Paul Laus
Rick Tocchet
Dave Schultz
Todd Fedoruk
Matt Barnaby
Darcy Hordichuk

[BENNETTWOLF]

Originally Posted by srehm1

82-83 season

Nick Fotiu is ranked at 6 and he had only 5 fights that year. He went 3-1-1 in those fights. He beat Giroux, Hunter, and Nilan while losing to Paul Holmgren.

Paul Holmgren is listed at 4-0-0 in 9 fights including wins over #6 Fotiu, Plett, and Howatt. He is out of the top 10?

Wilson and Gillies are 2 and 3 that year respectively but only had 2 fights each.

Playfair is at #2 but had a 2-2-0 record in 11 fights.

I know that era is static at best and footage is scarce but why no love for Holmgren?

Scott Stevens was in his rookie year and fought 14 times with a 4-2-1 record. No love.

A young Kevin McClelland was in his first full year with Pittsburgh and went 6-0-0 in 7 fights. No love.

Don Jackson was 5-2-2 in 11 fights beating Ryan Walter, Jimmy Nill, and Jim Peplinski 3 times while losing to Jay Wells twice. No love.

Big John Wensink was 2-0-2 in 10 fights with wins against R. Higgins and R. Holt. No love.

While we're at it how about Ron Friest? He went 4-0-3 and was more of a LHW but still no love?

I know that many players can be thrown in the discussion. You can probably make a case for guys like Paul Baxter, Jimmy Nill, Carl Mokosak -- even Bennet Wolf for that matter. I'm only providing some food for thought and trying to shed a little light on an era that is very murky.

I've done a lot of research on this era and found that your better fighters did not fight with the reckless abandon of fighters during the heavyweight era. A good fighter during this era would probably have maybe 7 or 8 fights. Semenko is #1 and had an 8-1-2 record in 14 fights during the 82-83 season. That's probably a lot for an elite fighter at this time.

Just trying to stir up some debate and provide a clrearer picture to look at when you stroll through memory lane in Remember When. I'd love to hear any arguments for or against these players.

Yeah, you gotta love trying to figure out stuff by going off of DYG. As you pointed out, 50-80 percent of the fights may not be reveiwed. It helps if you can recall others that aren't reveiwed or have heard about them.

Of course, memory and going by second and third hand accounts may not jibe with reality (or at least your personal opinion). Case in point: I had read that Clark Gillies dominated Terry O'reilly in that famous playoff series. When i watched the tape, i was suprised to see Terry absolutely clobber Gillies in one and account himself fairly well. It's one thing for Gillies to get credit for leading the Islanders over the playoff hump by leading from the front (To the victors go the spoils). The actual fights are a slightly different matter.

I recall being suprised that for Gillies to have "dominated" that series, one has to give him credit for landing what seemed to be a good punch (that may have done damage) over the linesman after Terry kicked him. If i recall correctly, O'reilly was winning that fight and i've never given fistic credit for any type of "suckerpunch". All i really know is one of those fights looked like the worst loss i can recall Gillies taking. They looked like harder shots than in the "shutout" Behn Wilson pitched against him.

Nice to see the mention of both Bennett Wolf and Ron Freist. As a Baltimore Clipper, Friest was my first favorite player before Wolf came to town as a Skipjack. I've only ever seen the Wensink fight on video out of his NHL scraps. He did have a nice card. The poster Howatt here saw Paul Mulvey trounce Wolfie but i'm not sure which one of their two fights it was. I read on DYG that the Playfair fight was the highlight of either a linebrawl or a bench clearer. The Maloney fight, Wolf speared Dan in the face and then turtled. I've heard his fight vs Kotsopolous featured balance issues but iv'e always been dying to hear more about how he did in any of his big league scraps but especially vs the elite like O'reilly, Playfair and Curt Fraser.

There are several elite fighters from the late 70's-early 80's that are virtually impossible to get info on or footage of despite the wealth of knowledge on this site. Good luck on Jimmy Mann in Winnipeg except for going by DYG. I'm slightly too young to give accurate stuff on Paul Mulvey as a Cap besides the 5 fights iv'e seen. To my knowledge, most of the commonly available tapes have very little on Curt Fraser in Vancouver or much of Jack McIlhargey. There are (gratefully) some very solid guys here that will share what they know about guys from their home team or in general and Youtube helps tremendously in providing clips to fill in gaps or refresh the memory.

An inside joke: GOOD LUCK catching Bob Nystrom vs Curt Fraser. Supposedly an all time classic between these two. I don't know anyone who has seen it. I beleive Battleship has spoken to Fraser about it and posted about the conversation. It would be nice to know for sure to flesh out both men's resumes instead of calling it a "draw" in a barnburner.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

Yeah, you gotta love trying to figure out stuff by going off of DYG. As you pointed out, 50-80 percent of the fights may not be reveiwed. It helps if you can recall others that aren't reveiwed or have heard about them.

Of course, memory and going by second and third hand accounts may not jibe with reality (or at least your personal opinion). Case in point: I had read that Clark Gillies dominated Terry O'reilly in that famous playoff series. When i watched the tape, i was suprised to see Terry absolutely clobber Gillies in one and account himself fairly well. It's one thing for Gillies to get credit for leading the Islanders over the playoff hump by leading from the front (To the victors go the spoils). The actual fights are a slightly different matter.

I recall being suprised that for Gillies to have "dominated" that series, one has to give him credit for landing what seemed to be a good punch (that may have done damage) over the linesman after Terry kicked him. If i recall correctly, O'reilly was winning that fight and i've never given fistic credit for any type of "suckerpunch". All i really know is one of those fights looked like the worst loss i can recall Gillies taking. They looked like harder shots than in the "shutout" Behn Wilson pitched against him.

Nice to see the mention of both Bennett Wolf and Ron Freist. As a Baltimore Clipper, Friest was my first favorite player before Wolf came to town as a Skipjack. I've only ever seen the Wensink fight on video out of his NHL scraps. He did have a nice card. The poster Howatt here saw Paul Mulvey trounce Wolfie but i'm not sure which one of their two fights it was. I read on DYG that the Playfair fight was the highlight of either a linebrawl or a bench clearer. The Maloney fight, Wolf speared Dan in the face and then turtled. I've heard his fight vs Kotsopolous featured balance issues but iv'e always been dying to hear more about how he did in any of his big league scraps but especially vs the elite like O'reilly, Playfair and Curt Fraser.

There are several elite fighters from the late 70's-early 80's that are virtually impossible to get info on or footage of despite the wealth of knowledge on this site. Good luck on Jimmy Mann in Winnipeg except for going by DYG. I'm slightly too young to give accurate stuff on Paul Mulvey as a Cap besides the 5 fights iv'e seen. To my knowledge, most of the commonly available tapes have very little on Curt Fraser in Vancouver or much of Jack McIlhargey. There are (gratefully) some very solid guys here that will share what they know about guys from their home team or in general and Youtube helps tremendously in providing clips to fill in gaps or refresh the memory.

An inside joke: GOOD LUCK catching Bob Nystrom vs Curt Fraser. Supposedly an all time classic between these two. I don't know anyone who has seen it. I beleive Battleship has spoken to Fraser about it and posted about the conversation. It would be nice to know for sure to flesh out both men's resumes instead of calling it a "draw" in a barnburner.

Good post, as usual, BW. I recall the same exact thing about the O'reilly-Gillies series. Living in Boston you generally hear of three events as it pertains to hockey fighting: the Jonathan-Bouchard fight, the O'Reilly-Bridgman fights, and the O'Reilly-Gillies battles. Everything else (aside from the going into the stands episode at MSG) is secondary. Despite all the great fights through the years these three events still get talked about.

Quite a legend was built out of Jonathan in Boston after that fight with Bouchard. Certainly a great fight and Jonathan was an all-time type, but guys here in Boston were sure he was the greatest ever. I loved Jonathan but was not convinced simply because it was Bouchard and not someone like say, Schultz or Wilson or even Gillies -- guys who I thought were top tier-type guys. Bouchard only had a few fights in his career -- off the top of my head, maybe 15-20 fights. The David vs. Goliath thing is what helped create this legend. The Jonathan-Bouchard fight is the centerpiece of hockey fighting history in Boston.

As for Terry O', I always thought that he got his hat handed to him in that series with Gillies. I had only seen clips here and there of highlights and they were always of Gillies handing it to him. When I grew up and really got into hockey fights, I discovered the truth. O'Reilly really pounded him in two of those fights. Like you said, BW, I never saw Gillies take a beating like that. I had a new respect for Terry O' from that moment on.

With the Bridgman battles it was the same thing. I had heard about these battles as part of O'Reilly's legend here. I had been told they were monumental brawls and so forth. Turned out that bridgman did well against O'Reilly and took a few of those fights quite handily. O'Reilly really took a beating in two of those fights.

Defitnitely have to be careful with word of mouth. I try to rely on footage and what some of these players say themselves. If Semenko says Larry Playfair was one of the best in the business then it must be so. Who would know better then a guy who actually fought him?

Thankfully there are very knowledgable people on this site who help fill in the gaps. I've tried to pull in all the footage I can on this dark age of fighting. There are a lot of fights and fighters I'd love to learn more about. I would love to catch the Playfair vs. Mann rematch. The so called Fraser-Nystrom tilt you described. The second fight between Playfair and Wensink. How about some of those O'Reilly-Tiger Williams fights? Lots of great fights lost to the dark ages.

Love to learn more about the Friest's and Wolf's of the world. Got to keep digging, though. I, too only have the Wensink fight on tape. Still think that Holmgren is getting no love here. I'll have to review my Holmgren dvd one more time to get a better picture.

Lack of footage is one thing but lack of fighting is another. Fotiu had only 5 fights in 82-83 and was past his prime in my opinion. He lost to Holmgren yet Holmgren goes 4-0-0 in 9 fights and is not mentioned. Fotiu gets too much credit. He had three years of solid fighting 76-79. After that he gets too much consideration. He is the most hyped fighter on this site besides BGL.

Gillies and Wilson only had two fights, each. Ca'mon, man. Two fights? Friest and Wolf get my vote for the #2 and #3 spots (joking). Just trying to see through the fog, here. I mean it's thicker then pea soup. Do we even know what Curt Fraser did in 82-83? Anyone? Jimmy Mann? Just trying my best to not rely on "reputation' or word of mouth.

[zoli]

After rewatching my 00-01 DVDs, which are total of 10+1 DVDs i have to say Belak has no place in this 00-01 season Top 10 list. There are certainly more fighters (Langdon, McAllister, Domi, Matt Johnson), who had better seasons than him.

From these 4 i have to say McAllister is probably in 8th place ahead of Low and Fedoruk. And here are the reasons why:

Here are Belak highlights:

Holding his own against arguably the toughest guys in the league (Laraque an Brashear) and going 1-1-1 with them.....

and thats all. His other scraps were dull draws against Grimson 2x, Heins, Fedoruk and Johnson 2x. If these were great scraps, i would say he held his own but unfortunately these were non-eventers.

Lets see Langdon:

Only 9 scraps, but what a competition!!!

Laus, Ray, Low, Fedoruk, Worrell, McKenzie, Domi. His highlight fights were solid wins against Fedoruk, Low and Ray in great fights and also getting in a fight with Worrell, which was another good and even fight. Other fights were mostly non-eventers (McKenzie, Nazarov and the Domi fights)

And i think even better man for the spot in the Top 10 is McAllister:

His fightcard is not the best, but he dropped Naz, McKenna and McKay. Not a lot of players dropped McKenna and Naz, so this is kind of an accomplishment. Also he damaged McKenzie and McCarthy in his fights, gaving McCarthy a nice black eye (but the fight itself was a draw). Also he baadly beat Francis Belanger (against Belak he atleast earned a draw ) absolutely gave no chance to Oliwa. His only bad showing was against Blouin, which was a short fight which he lost.

I think also Domi and Johnson were better, but Langdon and McAllister were even better than Domi and Johnson. Personally i think McAllister could be 8th, Low 9th. Fed 10th and Langdon, Johnson, Domi and then Belak.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by zoli

I think also Domi and Johnson were better, but Langdon and McAllister were even better than Domi and Johnson. Personally i think McAllister could be 8th, Low 9th. Fed 10th and Langdon, Johnson, Domi and then Belak.

Agreed, good post. I'm leaving Low above McAllister because he already had begun building his NHL reputation the year before but basically I took your suggestion. Thanks.

[srehm1]

After checking through the top-10 lists I notice during the 83-84 season Clark Gillies is ranked #3. If I recall correctly Gillies is only credited with 3 fights on the season. He beat a young Marty McSorley and lost by contraversial TKO to Behn Wilson. A third fight involving Dale Hunter is lost forever as I don't believe footage of this fight exists. Does it matter?

I can think of several fighters who had superior seasons compared to Gillies. Joe Paterson, Mel Bridgman, Paul Holmgren, Wlli Plett, Dave Brown, and Scott Stevens are a handfull that come to mind.

After doing some research on these fighters I honestly feel that Dave Brown should be on that list. He was playing his first full year with Philly and he didn't lose a single fight. He had 10 fights in that rookie campaign and went 7-0-2. He beat Ed Hospodar, Rick Chartraw, Torrie Robertson, Paul Boutilier, Dwight Schofield, Brian Curran and another young fighter in Marty McSorley.
He had draws with Curran and Gord Kluzak. He also pulverized Anders Hakansson with a few sucker punches in a totally unfair attack. That episode aside, Brownie had a great campaign.

Gillies I think gets killed in my mind during this season because of inactivity. Three fights? One of which no one knows about or cares. Gillies is ranked much too high and it takes away from the seasons that some of the other ranked members in that list had.

Playfair and Cochrane are solid as #1 and #2, but at #3 Gillies is overrated. Certainly he stood in tough against Wilson and the fight was rather contraversial. Did Wilson land that right? It still goes down as a loss in my book.

In fact a case can be made for Gillies not being in the top 10 at all for the 83-84 season. Certainly the fighters I mentioned above were much busier then Gillies and had much better fight cards. Gillies last productive year as a fighter was the 79-80 season. That was the year of the great O'Reilly playoff fights. Since that time, Gillies didn't fight more then 3 times a season. I honestly believe that his best days were behind him at this point. Yet he gets credit for being a top-10 fighter throughout this major period of inactivity. For 5 seasons he is a ranked top-10er and he didn't fight more then 3 times in a single one. One season during that span he only fought 2 times (82-83). This is a long time debate, but I have to say that while Gillies was a great fighter in his prime, he gets too much credit for the longevity of his greatness.

I think he may still have been a great fighter and perhaps a better fighter then many on that list, but I think other fighters had better seasons then him. Just as Jim McKenzie got knocked for his inactivity during his day, I think Gillies should likewise suffer for his own inactivity. Like I stated, there are a handfull of solid HW's including Dave Brown who are left out because of Gillies' "reputation" ranking for this season.

Just thought I'd stir up some debate on this matter. I like using Merlins top-10 thread as a guide and always seek to make improvements on it.

Great thread, Merlin.

[Juha82]

Originally Posted by Juha82

1.J.Kocur(KO's Kyte, TKO's Manson and Ruff, great fight against Gaetz)
2.C.Berube(TKO's Bomber, good card with good outcomes)
3.J.Miller(2 fights with Brown, once with Kocur, good year)
4.M.McSorley(strong work+you see his strong card too)
5.R.Poeschek(strong work, wins over Chychrun2x and McRae2x)
6.J.Chychrun(you see his two fights against Probert)
7.C.Nilan(win over Brown and McSorley)
8.J.Kordivc(schooled McRae)
9.L.Byers(no losses, TKO's Stienburg but who the hell is he?! and Cochrane too, a draw against Bomber)
10.T.Carkner(you see his fights against McSorley, Nilan, Byers, Miller, McRae and Huscroft)

Honourable mentions;

1.M.Vukota
2.D.Kimble
3.R.Tocchet
4.B.McRae
5.K.Baumgartner

Lol, i just forget D.Brown.
He's Nro2.
Carkner is Top10-material as i DROPS Byers to HM(sorry Byers).