Lineage of the Heavyweight Champ & Top Ten Lists '75-'07

[Plateworker]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

What the hell are you talking about. The Worrell-Brashear fight was absolute ****. There is no way that Worrell won that fight or took the belt from Brashear. It is absolutely absurd that you are even arguing this. Have you seen the fight, or are you going bu DYG? Just curious, because if you have seen the fight, we wouldn't be arguing this.

Shhhhhh were are trying to have an intelligent conversation here. And yes I have the fight and yes while it was crap I still give the win to Worrell. Is that OK for you? If you want to call it a draw OK he still has 10 more wins and the same amount of losses .....1

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by Plateworker

Shhhhhh were are trying to have an intelligent conversation here. And yes I have the fight and yes while it was crap I still give the win to Worrell. Is that OK for you? If you want to call it a draw OK he still has 10 more wins and the same amount of losses .....1

You can let Worrell be the champ in your imaginary world. Fine with me. The bottom line is that that fight does not warrant a title change. Say Brashear was the champ right now. Would you give the belt to Laraque after their last fight?

[Plateworker]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

You can let Worrell be the champ in your imaginary world. Fine with me. The bottom line is that that fight does not warrant a title change. Say Brashear was the champ right now. Would you give the belt to Laraque after their last fight?

Well since it was a draw ...HMMMMM no.And why am I even talking with you anyway?

[Mr. Pink]

and yes I have the fight and yes while it was crap I still give the win to Worrell. Is that OK for you? If you want to call it a draw

Well since it was a draw

???

[Plateworker]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

???

See thats why I told you to be quite, because you have no idea what we are talking about. Now Run along stop bothering us

[Plateworker]

2003-2004 I have some issues with also

Cairns Champ yes no doubt

Matt Johnson second. Not a chance in hell with a 12-6-6 record, I dont care who he fought and beat.

Brash should be second Followed by Simon who was ....uh undefeated that year.

Scott Parker are you kidding that he is 5th with as many wins as draws, 7.

BGL is fourth....LOL... come on why do you keep giving this guy so much credit. What did he do this year to be fourth. His card is horrible. Losses to Thorton and Johnson, his wins are against nobodys, Nazarov, J. Stevenson, May, Oliwa with a good win against a decent Peters and....oh wait thats all his wins...all 5 of them yet he is ranked 4th..Cmon Merlin you can do better than that.

Simon at 6th going undefeated for two different teams 16 wins...ok Don't know where that came from

Oliwa are you giving him this spot just for the number of fights. Winning 11 and losing 10 does not make a good year

Belak Good Call

Peters no problem

Brookbank? More losses than wins

Was there something wrong with Reed Low, again you discard him yet he lost once and won 10 times and that loss was to Big Pete. He beat better guys than BGL yet he is not even on the list. Those Guys BGL beat above compared to Low beating Godard, May, Oliwa, Dingman, Roy, Shelley, Vandemeer and losing only once....?

Boulerice is another that could go on the list in front of oh I dont know say...Brookbank for one

Brookbank top wins Oliwa, Cummins, Thorton and Johnson
Boulerice top wins Thorton, Peat, Quintal and T.Stevenson. Including 4 wins in Preseason and Brookbanks 4 losses in perseason make Jesse a better choice. Brookbank 7-8 Boulerice 10-6.

1. Cairns
2. Brash
3. Simon
4. Low
5. Belak
6. Johnson
7. Peters
8. BGL
9. Parker
10. Boulerice

just my opinion

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by Plateworker

Cmon Merlin you can do better than that.

Considering its not my list, I'm sure I can too. In case you hadn't read it in the places its been mentioned in this thread, this is the list that was voted upon by members of hockeyfights.com after the 03-04 season. Only up until 01-02 is mine.

My personal 03-04 list I believe looked like this:

1-Cairns
2-Brash
3-Johnson
4-Laraque
5-Simon
6-Parker
7-Peters
8-Boulerice
9-Belak
10-Low

Comments:

Low: Didn't beat a single person ranked above him. Best win was a shaky Godard. Also coming off a relatively poor 02-03 campaign so he really needed to show something to order to make up ground. He did well, but not THAT well.

Laraque: The guy had some losses, but he had been champ for a while now. Getting edged out twice in a season doesn't make you go from champ to almost off the top 10. Its not even as if this was the beginning of the end, as he was champ again the year after. Like it or not, he was still 3-1 against top 10 competition. I can't knock him down too much for that.

Simon: With Simon again, you have to consider where he's coming from. This guy, at the start of the season, was a laughing stock. There's no bigger Simon fans on here than me, but it takes some time to resurrect your career and reputation. He didn't fight many bigtime heavyweights, so just because he was undefeated doesn't mean we can assume he would have the same success against a card like Matt Johnson's which was a million top echelon heavyweights. See, a lot about these lists are based on your track record. Last year's champ doesn't have to show as much to be ranked highly as does someone who is unproven IMO because they already have established a body of work to help you rate them. I dont rate people on one year exlusively ever.

Boulerice: He was vastly underrated all season. Surprised he was virtually shut out in top 10 voting (and by that, he wasn't even close to being on the top 10).

[Plateworker]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

Considering its not my list, I'm sure I can too. In case you hadn't read it in the places its been mentioned in this thread, this is the list that was voted upon by members of hockeyfights.com after the 03-04 season. Only up until 01-02 is mine.

My personal 03-04 list I believe looked like this:

1-Cairns
2-Brash
3-Johnson
4-Laraque
5-Simon
6-Parker
7-Peters
8-Boulerice
9-Belak
10-Low

Comments:

Low: Didn't beat a single person ranked above him. Best win was a shaky Godard. Also coming off a relatively poor 02-03 campaign so he really needed to show something to order to make up ground. He did well, but not THAT well.

Laraque: The guy had some losses, but he had been champ for a while now. Getting edged out twice in a season doesn't make you go from champ to almost off the top 10. Its not even as if this was the beginning of the end, as he was champ again the year after. Like it or not, he was still 3-1 against top 10 competition. I can't knock him down too much for that.

Simon: With Simon again, you have to consider where he's coming from. This guy, at the start of the season, was a laughing stock. There's no bigger Simon fans on here than me, but it takes some time to resurrect your career and reputation. He didn't fight many bigtime heavyweights, so just because he was undefeated doesn't mean we can assume he would have the same success against a card like Matt Johnson's which was a million top echelon heavyweights. See, a lot about these lists are based on your track record. Last year's champ doesn't have to show as much to be ranked highly as does someone who is unproven IMO because they already have established a body of work to help you rate them. I dont rate people on one year exlusively ever.

Boulerice: He was vastly underrated all season. Surprised he was virtually shut out in top 10 voting (and by that, he wasn't even close to being on the top 10).

I like your list much better Merlin. But using your own words about track record.
1. Are you really, ever, in any world ever created going to rank Johnson above Simon. He could not even spell his name.
2. If you go by track record I have not a single doubt that Simon would have a better record than Johnson with Johnsons card.
3. He beat 2 top ten guys Peters and BGL and also lost 3 times to them. His other victorys are over pretty much the same type of guys that Simon beat.
Johnson with wins over
Erskine, Lessard, Oliwa 2x, Peters, Shelley, BGl, Thorton, Brookbank, Vandy.
Losses to BGL 2x, Peters, Brookbank, Vandemeer, Langdon
Simon with wins over
Hordi, T. Stevenson, Marchment 2x, Langdon, Boulerice, Dingman, Simpson, Roy, Erskine
Losses......NONE
looks about the same cast of characters to me that they both beat except Simon did not lose all year and won 16 times where as Johnson won 12 times and lost 6 times. Cmon now Merlin.

As I said before I am not a firm believer in handing some one the title on past performance unless that persons performance that year is satisfactory and he must fight at least 10-12 times that year because if that was the case than Probert would have been champ until the day he retired

BGL fought no one this year 2 wins and a loss against Johnson ...wow an average HW his entire career and Peters the very definition of average. And then he beat.......noboby...Nazarov....lol... May...against BGL....lol. J. Stevenson...and he is a....punchingbag. Bad Card, 6 wins and you want to place him fourth. Nah can't do it.

Low has wins over Vandemeer(who beat Johnson) Dingman, May (one of BGL's massive 6 wins), Oliwa, Godard, Roy, Shelley and IMO he beat Johnson in their fight. so its not really that bad Merlin. As long as he is on the list I would be OK with it. We have pretty much the same thinking Merlin..except for BGL of course

[full force five]

You can not count the win that Vandemeer had over Johnson. It was a junk fight where Johnson was taking on Vandy and Vandy at the same time. The Langdon - Johnson fight was a draw . . . Johnson for most of the fight and Langdon landed a few rights at the end when Johnson was out of gas. I can't remember the BGL fights but I'm sure they were like the 1,000 other Johnson BGL fight a few punches not much landed and they fall down. The Johnson win over BGL was a big win with a few hard shots landing around the helmet area of BGL.

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by full force five

You can not count the win that Vandemeer had over Johnson. It was a junk fight where Johnson was taking on Vandy and Vandy at the same time. The Langdon - Johnson fight was a draw . . . Johnson for most of the fight and Langdon landed a few rights at the end when Johnson was out of gas. I can't remember the BGL fights but I'm sure they were like the 1,000 other Johnson BGL fight a few punches not much landed and they fall down. The Johnson win over BGL was a big win with a few hard shots landing around the helmet area of BGL.

I would have to agree with you here. Johnson's 03-04 wins were substantial (like the Laraque fight, the Peters KO, etc), and most of his "losses" were fluky or crappy fights. The pure record does not tell the whole story, as he had a very formidable year.

And I hate Matt Johnson. I hate him for what he did to Beuk, and I never thought he was an entertaining, exciting, or particularly good fighter. But 03-04 was a really good year for him.

[Plateworker]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

I would have to agree with you here. Johnson's 03-04 wins were substantial (like the Laraque fight, the Peters KO, etc), and most of his "losses" were fluky or crappy fights. The pure record does not tell the whole story, as he had a very formidable year.

And I hate Matt Johnson. I hate him for what he did to Beuk, and I never thought he was an entertaining, exciting, or particularly good fighter. But 03-04 was a really good year for him.

I very much agree with you that we HATE M. Johnson and you know what after reviewing about 12 of his fights from 03-04 I do have to give him his due. Even though he will always be a, excuse the language, C*cksucker, for what he did to Bueke he is and always will be an average fighter. as always my respect goes out to you Merlin

[Merlin401]

FYI, the 2006-07 season is in the books and so now is top 10 voting so I've added the results into the thread.

I think the list looks fairly accurate. There's very little I would change about it

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by Merlin401

2006-07
2006-2007:

1) Georges Laraque, PHX/PIT
2) Donald Brashear, WAS
3) Derek Boogaard, MIN
4) Andrew Peters, BUF
5) Brian McGrattan, OTT
6) Eric Godard, CLG
7) Colton Orr, NYR
8) Wade Belak, TOR
9) George Parros, ANA
10) D.J. King, STL.

Parros at Number 9 is killer though

-TKOed by Shelley
-Pounded by Brashear
-lost to King

[Merlin401]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Parros at Number 9 is killer though

-TKOed by Shelley
-Pounded by Brashear
-lost to King

I agree, Parros is not in my top 10, but I wouldn't say its "a killer". But, in fairness: Brash is already ahead of him (obviously), King is just a rookie and also made the top 10, and as for Shelley, that was his only win of the SEASON, so I wouldn't want him in the top 10. I'd rather have Thornton (who, really fought a poor card if you look at it despite a great record) or Janssen (who had a bit of an off year). Not as much to choose from this year so someone has to sneak onto the top 10.

[jkidd]

This years top 10 might have been the hardest to come up with... it seems like most HW's didnt fight a lot, or didnt fight good cards. Some of the up and coming HW's didnt fight all season or have the fight card. And some of the "old gaurds" were gone after a few games, despite having a great start to the season.

This years, compared to 03-04's or even last years, was a lot tougher to compile - due to the reasons above.