Let's Revisit Our Top 25's: Part II

[jayc948]

I think the last time we did this was 4-5 years ago. Anyone else's list change since then? I know mine did, a lot. Keep in mind that the list is as of right now. It's obviously always subject to change.

Post away and let's compare.

1. Bob Probert
2. Dave Brown
3. Behn Wilson
4. Donald Brashear
5. Clark Gillies
6. Larry Playfair
7. Joey Kocur
8. Stan Jonathan
9. Georges Laraque
10. Bobby Nystrom
11. John Wensink
12. Nick Fotiu
13. Tie Domi
14. Tony Twist
15. Sandy McCarthy
16. Chris Simon
17. Dave Semenko
18. Tim Hunter
19. Marty McSorley
20. John Kordic
21. Chris Nilan
22. Stu Grimson
23. Terry O'Reilly
24. Curt Fraser
25. Dave Richter

[srehm1]

I'll update mine as well:

1. Bob Probert
2. Dave Brown
3. Behn Wilson
4. Donald Brashear
5. Joe Kocur
6. Clark Gillies
7. Gerorge Laraque
8. Larry Playfair
9. Marty McSorley
10. Sandy McCarthy
11. Tony Twist
12. Stu Grimson
13. Tie Domi
14. Jim McKenzie
15. Derek Boogaard
16. Bobby Nystrom
17. Chris Simon
18. Craig Berube
19. Tim Hunter
20. Wade Belak
21. Terry O'Reilly
22. Dave Semenko
23. Colton Orr
24. Eric Godard
25. John Kordic

[Leaf2717]

1] Probert
2] Brown
3] Fotiu
4] Behn Wilson
5] Clark Gilles
6] Brash
7] Larry Playfair
8] Twist
9] BGL
10] Rob Ray/Joe Kocur
11] Grimson
12] O’Reilly
13] Paul Laus
14] Bobby Nystrom
15] Troy Crowder
16] John Kordic
17] Boogie/Sandy McCarthy
18] Chris Simon/Orr
19] Tie Domi
20] Tim Hunter
21] Dave Richter
22] Wendel Clark
23] Willi Plett
24] Dave Semenko
25] Gino Odjick

And the rankings are just as simple as "bet you $20 he wins" - let me know which one of these guys is am automtic loser to the guy above and i will re-write my list.

Strem - Fotiu is a NY legend. My first experience with HF. I may be wrong but I may be right.

All the best.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by Leaf2717

1] Probert
2] Brown
3] Fotiu
4] Behn Wilson
5] Clark Gilles
6] Brash
7] Larry Playfair
8] Twist
9] BGL
10] Rob Ray/Joe Kocur
11] Grimson
12] O’Reilly
13] Paul Laus
14] Bobby Nystrom
15] Troy Crowder
16] John Kordic
17] Boogie/Sandy McCarthy
18] Chris Simon/Orr
19] Tie Domi
20] Tim Hunter
21] Dave Richter
22] Wendel Clark
23] Willi Plett
24] Dave Semenko
25] Gino Odjick

And the rankings are just as simple as "bet you $20 he wins" - let me know which one of these guys is am automtic loser to the guy above and i will re-write my list.

Strem - Fotiu is a NY legend. My first experience with HF. I may be wrong but I may be right.

All the best.

Hey leaf, we all have our own criteria. It's nice to see the way people rank fighters. sometimes you can see things from a different angle and you can learn from them.

I've never been a fan of the "fighter a can beat fighter b so he ranks higher' style of ranking fighters, myself. too many different styles of fighters with too many different kinds of matchups. who can say that wilson wouldn't have his hands full with John Kordic? Does that mean Kordic should rank higher than big behn? Of course not. So it's hard for me to go along with that. i try to base my rankings on their accomplishments as fighters. who they beat, how long were they in their prime, were they among the game's best fighters during their careers? were they the best or champ at any time? did they have long stretches of greatness or were they short term greats? was their era better/more competitive than another? things like this. other intangibles come into play like what was their strength of opposition, how successful they were as well as physical/mental strengths and technique.

I try not to get caught up in picking apart lists because many will not agree with mine or the different factors i use.

you're right about fotiu though. he is a legend.

[mikebflorida]

Player

1-Bob Probert
2-Behn Wilson
3-Dave Brown
4-Georges Laraque
5-Jim McKenzie
6-Marty McSorely
7-Donald Brashear
8-Larry Playfair
9-Joe Kocur
10-Sandy McCarthy
11-Craig Berube
12-Tie Domi
13-Clark Gillies
14-Ken Baumgartner
15-Tony Twist
16-Bob Nystrom
17-Stu Grimson
18-Eric Godard
19-Glen Cochrane
20-Dave Schultz
21-Derrek Boogaard
22-John Kordic
23-Dan Maloney
24-Eric Cairns
25-Todd Ewen


That's my current top 25 but this may change, I still have several guys to look at and rate but moving is taking up a lot of my time, packing, cleaning, etc.

My rankings are skill based, for the most part but longevity/number of fights turned out to be an important factor, it helped some guys and hurt others, like Fotiu. Nick just missed the top 25 when at one time he was in my top 10. A couple of guys who may make the top 25 are Tim Hunter and Darren Langdon, 2 guys I haven't worked on yet.

[Johnny Pie]

Originally Posted by srehm1

Hey leaf, we all have our own criteria. It's nice to see the way people rank fighters. sometimes you can see things from a different angle and you can learn from them.

I've never been a fan of the "fighter a can beat fighter b so he ranks higher' style of ranking fighters, myself. too many different styles of fighters with too many different kinds of matchups. who can say that wilson wouldn't have his hands full with John Kordic? Does that mean Kordic should rank higher than big behn? Of course not. So it's hard for me to go along with that. i try to base my rankings on their accomplishments as fighters. who they beat, how long were they in their prime, were they among the game's best fighters during their careers? were they the best or champ at any time? did they have long stretches of greatness or were they short term greats? was their era better/more competitive than another? things like this. other intangibles come into play like what was their strength of opposition, how successful they were as well as physical/mental strengths and technique.

I try not to get caught up in picking apart lists because many will not agree with mine or the different factors i use.

you're right about fotiu though. he is a legend.

Srehm I only ask that ratings are based on reality. RATE THE FIGHTERS ON WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID. Everything else is fun but it is only hypothetical. You can only rate someone on what he accomplished against the best that was available in his era. What happens so much in every thread is an opinion about what someone could have done, would have done etc. Just rate them on what they did. Giving credit for non fights is not fair to Fighters who faced everyone. Like the old saying "you can't get wet when you don't go in the pool". I agree with a lot of your criteria. The toughest part is figuring out what era was better or more competitive. Some era's had the one demensional fighters ,does that make them better then the era when players fought ? I guess in a way it does but To me you can only rate someone on who he could have fought in reality. Now if he didn't fight the tough guys that were available that DOES COUNT. Ratings are of course just opinion no right or wrong answers. But they should be based more on reality than speculation IMO.

[Gunslinger]

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in even though I'm not a big fan of lists. They are always subjective and tend to end in pointless debate but what the hey, I'll give it a go. I am willing to discuss why I put a certain player where I did in my list but I'm not gonna have a pissing match as to why my list/your list is better, more legit, etc. My criteria was based on # of fights, winning percentage, strength of card and I also took into account in some cases a "prognostic" approach as too how well a fighter would have done if they would have had a longer career. Thats why I have some guys with short careers higher than some lists do. My winning percentages are from DYG so take them for what they are worth. Comments are welcome, insults and a rope to piss up are not.

1)Bob Probert-302 NHL fights 58%
2)Dave Brown-202 NHL fights 62%
3)Behn Wilson-98 NHL fights 63%
4)Donald Brashear-278 NHL fights 60% record vs. Laraque 2w/3d/1l
5)Joey Kocur-262 NHL fights 60%
6)Georges Laraque-153 NHL fights 60%
7)Chris Simon-129 NHL fights 60%
8)Tony Twist-136 NHL fights 61%
9)Larry Playfair-117 NHL fights 63%
10)Jim McKenzie-212 NHL fights 55%
11)Bob Nystrom-139 NHL fights 61%
12)John Kordic-125 NHL fights 60%
13)Clark Gillies-73 NHL fights 60%
14)Tie Domi-333 NHL fights 57%
15)Marty McSorley-273 NHL fights 56%
16)Dave Richter-62 NHL fights 61%
17)Glen Cochrane-107 NHL fights 59%
18)Bob Gassoff-44 NHL fights 67%
19)Stan Jonathan-84 NHL fights 58%
20)Sandy McCarthy-165 NHL fights 57%
21)Craig Berube-295 NHL fights 56%
22)Nick Fotiu-65 NHL fights 58%
23)Terry O' Reilly-223 NHL fights 54%
24)Stu Grimson-270 NHL fights 54%
25)Garry Howatt-237 NHL fights 54%

There you go boys.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in even though I'm not a big fan of lists. They are always subjective and tend to end in pointless debate but what the hey, I'll give it a go. I am willing to discuss why I put a certain player where I did in my list but I'm not gonna have a pissing match as to why my list/your list is better, more legit, etc. My criteria was based on # of fights, winning percentage, strength of card and I also took into account in some cases a "prognostic" approach as too how well a fighter would have done if they would have had a longer career. Thats why I have some guys with short careers higher than some lists do. My winning percentages are from DYG so take them for what they are worth. Comments are welcome, insults and a rope to piss up are not.

1)Bob Probert-302 NHL fights 58%
2)Dave Brown-202 NHL fights 62%
3)Behn Wilson-98 NHL fights 63%
4)Donald Brashear-278 NHL fights 60% record vs. Laraque 2w/3d/1l
5)Joey Kocur-262 NHL fights 60%
6)Georges Laraque-153 NHL fights 60%
7)Chris Simon-129 NHL fights 60%
8)Tony Twist-136 NHL fights 61%
9)Larry Playfair-117 NHL fights 63%
10)Jim McKenzie-212 NHL fights 55%
11)Bob Nystrom-139 NHL fights 61%
12)John Kordic-125 NHL fights 60%
13)Clark Gillies-73 NHL fights 60%
14)Tie Domi-333 NHL fights 57%
15)Marty McSorley-273 NHL fights 56%
16)Dave Richter-62 NHL fights 61%
17)Glen Cochrane-107 NHL fights 59%
18)Bob Gassoff-44 NHL fights 67%
19)Stan Jonathan-84 NHL fights 58%
20)Sandy McCarthy-165 NHL fights 57%
21)Craig Berube-295 NHL fights 56%
22)Nick Fotiu-65 NHL fights 58%
23)Terry O' Reilly-223 NHL fights 54%
24)Stu Grimson-270 NHL fights 54%
25)Garry Howatt-237 NHL fights 54%

There you go boys.

Thats one way to do it - Just as good as any other

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

These lists however they are formulated remind me of Christianity in this sense. Basically, everyone is in agreement give or take one here and one there. Whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Episopalian, Greek/Russian Orthodox, et....they all agree on the main tenets of the faith

1. Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead.
1. Tri-Une God-head (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
1. Jesus Christ dies for our sins and whoever believes that HE is the Christ has eternal life.

Majoring on the minors: how one crosses oneself, purgatory, baptism with water, usage of alcohol - all these are the issues that divide.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by Gunslinger

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in even though I'm not a big fan of lists. They are always subjective and tend to end in pointless debate but what the hey, I'll give it a go. I am willing to discuss why I put a certain player where I did in my list but I'm not gonna have a pissing match as to why my list/your list is better, more legit, etc. My criteria was based on # of fights, winning percentage, strength of card and I also took into account in some cases a "prognostic" approach as too how well a fighter would have done if they would have had a longer career. Thats why I have some guys with short careers higher than some lists do. My winning percentages are from DYG so take them for what they are worth. Comments are welcome, insults and a rope to piss up are not.

1)Bob Probert-302 NHL fights 58%
2)Dave Brown-202 NHL fights 62%
3)Behn Wilson-98 NHL fights 63%
4)Donald Brashear-278 NHL fights 60% record vs. Laraque 2w/3d/1l
5)Joey Kocur-262 NHL fights 60%
6)Georges Laraque-153 NHL fights 60%
7)Chris Simon-129 NHL fights 60%
8)Tony Twist-136 NHL fights 61%
9)Larry Playfair-117 NHL fights 63%
10)Jim McKenzie-212 NHL fights 55%
11)Bob Nystrom-139 NHL fights 61%
12)John Kordic-125 NHL fights 60%
13)Clark Gillies-73 NHL fights 60%
14)Tie Domi-333 NHL fights 57%
15)Marty McSorley-273 NHL fights 56%
16)Dave Richter-62 NHL fights 61%
17)Glen Cochrane-107 NHL fights 59%
18)Bob Gassoff-44 NHL fights 67%
19)Stan Jonathan-84 NHL fights 58%
20)Sandy McCarthy-165 NHL fights 57%
21)Craig Berube-295 NHL fights 56%
22)Nick Fotiu-65 NHL fights 58%
23)Terry O' Reilly-223 NHL fights 54%
24)Stu Grimson-270 NHL fights 54%
25)Garry Howatt-237 NHL fights 54%

There you go boys.

SImon at #7?? Please, lets not get BBBB's hopes up!

Nice list and thankfully this thread didn't just die out with only a couple of them. I thought for sure this thread would fade away. Funny how we debate rankings all the time and yet we only have a handful of lists. I'm going to use this thread to move up and down fighters on my list as i go along, rather then make a new one every week or two.

The reason I don't favor the short term guys like Richter, Gassoff or even Cochrane is because we honestly don't know how they would fare if they played longer. Yet we sure do know about guys like Mckenzie, Berube, mcsorley, probert, grimson etc etc. That's really the difference. We KNOW what they could do because we saw it all. We can only speculate on how richter, gassoff, or cochrane would do over longer careers. I used to have richter very high on my list but he faded-more like droppped like a stone-as I watched more footage and saw the great great careers of other great fighters. When I see a guy like Brash go a decade as an elite HW-I'm impressed. Same for Grimson, Marty mac etc. Much more impressive than a guy with a nice two year run. Or even a guy like Gassoff who gave us 4 years in a no-video market and era (i think only a few of his fights are on video). When I see a short termer and compare him to a long term great-it's no comparison. In most cases the long termer gives you so much more to go on. So many more fights to judge them. His career is fleshed out from beginning to end. You see if they stumble a bit as a rookie then gather momentum into a white hot prime and then fade away or completely break down as they near the end.

I think Richter and cochrane were already showing signs of what would have happened had they kept playing or had lengthy careers. Cochrane was not the same fighter in VAn/Chi/EDM. Richter already began to fade in Van/Stl Just my opinion.

lets get some more lists going, guys!

[Kocur4life]

If Cochrane is a "short term guy", what does that make John Kordic and Derek Boogaard?

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by srehm1

SImon at #7?? Please, lets not get BBBB's hopes up!

Nice list and thankfully this thread didn't just die out with only a couple of them. I thought for sure this thread would fade away. Funny how we debate rankings all the time and yet we only have a handful of lists. I'm going to use this thread to move up and down fighters on my list as i go along, rather then make a new one every week or two.

The reason I don't favor the short term guys like Richter, Gassoff or even Cochrane is because we honestly don't know how they would fare if they played longer. Yet we sure do know about guys like Mckenzie, Berube, mcsorley, probert, grimson etc etc. That's really the difference. We KNOW what they could do because we saw it all. We can only speculate on how richter, gassoff, or cochrane would do over longer careers. I used to have richter very high on my list but he faded-more like droppped like a stone-as I watched more footage and saw the great great careers of other great fighters. When I see a guy like Brash go a decade as an elite HW-I'm impressed. Same for Grimson, Marty mac etc. Much more impressive than a guy with a nice two year run. Or even a guy like Gassoff who gave us 4 years in a no-video market and era (i think only a few of his fights are on video). When I see a short termer and compare him to a long term great-it's no comparison. In most cases the long termer gives you so much more to go on. So many more fights to judge them. His career is fleshed out from beginning to end. You see if they stumble a bit as a rookie then gather momentum into a white hot prime and then fade away or completely break down as they near the end.

I think Richter and cochrane were already showing signs of what would have happened had they kept playing or had lengthy careers. Cochrane was not the same fighter in VAn/Chi/EDM. Richter already began to fade in Van/Stl Just my opinion.

lets get some more lists going, guys!

According to your stated criteria, namely, "length of days" - Simon surely should seat high. Whether he backed off on his fighting as per coaches orders (CAPS), was hampered by a chronic shoulder problem, he did turn it on in the end against the NHL's elite some 16 years later with some impressive victories. Not only that but he beat any and all seated above him on GS's list, including: Brash, Brown, Probert - if you have to penalize him for his lil haitus from activity 7 is a good spot for him, but no lower.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by Kocur4life

If Cochrane is a "short term guy", what does that make John Kordic and Derek Boogaard?

Yeah cochrane would be a bad example -probably a good career guy.

Hey, Kocur4L-would love to hear your thoughts on this. Maybe get some more discussion going if we could get some more lists.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

According to your stated criteria, namely, "length of days" - Simon surely should seat high. Whether he backed off on his fighting as per coaches orders (CAPS), was hampered by a chronic shoulder problem, he did turn it on in the end against the NHL's elite some 16 years later with some impressive victories. Not only that but he beat any and all seated above him on GS's list, including: Brash, Brown, Probert - if you have to penalize him for his lil haitus from activity 7 is a good spot for him, but no lower.

He did have a good career. I don't think anyone doubts that and he does have some nice wins. That is why I rank him so high. Top-10 is not where i would put him. I like him in the top-20 though absolutely.

Where does he fit in regards to the other top-25 that you have? I would love to see that for the sake of some good debate.

[Flyer_Frank]

Surprised I don't see Jay Miller on anyone's list. About 150 career fights. Didn't lose many. He used to drive Dave Brown nuts when Brown was in his heyday.