Lets give it up for the hammer

[Carkner]

Welcome the the site, KOC. You make some really good points and started a great, fresh discussion. I agree Schultz's FIGHTING ABILITY is underrated by most. Probably because of the hype he received in the seventies. I think there basically has been a 30 year backlash against Schultz calling him overrated in order to counterbalance this hype....and that's what most of us have heard and think we have learned. Regardless of all that, I will say this: I would say Schultz is the number one FIGHTER of his generation. When I say "his generation" I mean players that began their careers 1972 or earlier, before the goon boom of the mid-late seventies. Who has fought and beaten more heavyweights than him during that era? Is there anyone he DIDN'T fight? The guy fought ALL the top guys of his era and had great success. The guy had power, a great chin, stamina, and a very good technical fighter as well. And again...most importantly..give me someone with a better card, or even close card...and had the same results. I think he was the Bob Probert of his generation. He took them all on and was the guy to beat. Didn't win them all, but neither did Probert and we don't hold that against him. If I'm wrong tell me who was better and why, using all the same criteria we use to judge the later fighters.

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by Carkner

Welcome the the site, KOC. You make some really good points and started a great, fresh discussion. I agree Schultz's FIGHTING ABILITY is underrated by most. Probably because of the hype he received in the seventies. I think there basically has been a 30 year backlash against Schultz calling him overrated in order to counterbalance this hype....and that's what most of us have heard and think we have learned. Regardless of all that, I will say this: I would say Schultz is the number one FIGHTER of his generation. When I say "his generation" I mean players that began their careers 1972 or earlier, before the goon boom of the mid-late seventies. Who has fought and beaten more heavyweights than him during that era? Is there anyone he DIDN'T fight? The guy fought ALL the top guys of his era and had great success. The guy had power, a great chin, stamina, and a very good technical fighter as well. And again...most importantly..give me someone with a better card, or even close card...and had the same results. I think he was the Bob Probert of his generation. He took them all on and was the guy to beat. Didn't win them all, but neither did Probert and we don't hold that against him. If I'm wrong tell me who was better and why, using all the same criteria we use to judge the later fighters.

Lets look at daves WIN'S ! multible victoreys over terry o'riely clearly consider a top five for that era mulitaple destructions of gary howett who for at least a few years was also considered near the top route of keith magnuson worse beating of maggie life at least 2 of the 3 plager brothers always tough customers and of coarse his victory over the reigning champ dan maloney after being punched from behind The one punch knockout of john van boxmer will forever be in hockey lore as it started larry robinson and the Canadians into the fistic arms race. The flyers think dave was finished shipped him off to the kings for a song but dave had other idea's ! With a new backbone named schultz the kings race thru the playoffs outfight a stacked flames team and take the bruins to the brink before bowing out of coarse the greatest man on man playoff fight in history a over the hill hammer vs knock out king and certainly top three for his time stan johnthan was the height of daves king stay..i am talking no clutch and grab but flying knock out shots back and forth (the films you see dont do the fight justice) i was sitting right behind the bench's and you could Hear the punches though stan had him at first with a inside shot just above the nose but dave used all his skills to move just enough away to lessen the impact then landed some beauty's of his own for the win . after he left the kings i really did not follow his career closely but a few years ago i came across the ben wilson fight an could not believe the aged schultz still had enough to beat the numer 2 or 3 alltime according to this site...SO GET A GRIP haters the wins speak for themselves as jack said dave had alot of skills outstanding balance and as pointed out by carkner he fought them all

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Flyer_Frank

Arguably, it was when the WHA teams merged into the NHL that cost Schultz his job. 21 teams down from a peak of more than 30 when both leagues had a full stock of teams, cost a lot of guys. Add to that a growing talent pool with more Euros and Americans plus guys were getting bigger with more focus on skating and the game was great then and pretty well stayed that way until the clutch-and-grab trapping days of the mid-90s and beyond.

With the much bigger talent pool of today, I have no problem with a 30 team league, I think the talent can support it. I don't want to see any expansion though.

Many in the hockey world have agreed with me that there is way too much expansion and the talent is really diluted. John Davidson was on a Rangers broadcast like 5 years ago in his first trip back to MSG as the Blues head man and told Sam and Joe that there are no 3rd lines anymore because of the excessive expansion! I said Bravo JD and wrote about it here!
20-22 teams would be great today and contract those 8 crappy franchises that don't draw flies and we'd see an amazing NHL and 3rd lines like Boston, NY, and Montreal enjoyed in the early 1970's!
Boston with Sanderson as their 3rd line center!
NY with Stemkowski as their 3rd line center!
Montreal with Pete Mahovlich or Henri Richard as their 3rd line center!
Remember Montreal with Beliveau, Lemaire, Richard, and Mahovlich as their 4 centers or Boston with Esposito, Stanfield, Sanderson, Walton, the Rangers with Ratelle, Tkaczuk, Stemkowski, Goyette and Bobby Rousseau playing powerplay specialist and part-time right winger because they were so deep at center ice!
The Rangers were so deep at center that they traded or left exposed in the expansion draft Orland Kurtenbach, Syl Apps, Juha Widing, Don Luce they were so deep at Center Ice!
Can you imagine having all those center iceman from 1970-71 in one organization that were NHL players and good players?
They had so many leftwingers that guys like Jarry and Egers couldn't make the Rangers or a guy like Mike Murphy at right wing and how about Moose Dupont and Steve Durbano on the blueline along with Al Hamilton and Mike Robitaille?
The Rangers were like eight deep in NHL talent and still never won the Cup in those years!
Montreal had guys like Houle, Tardif, Roberto, Mickey Redmond, who couldn't get regular icetime!
Boston had guys like Reggie Leach, Bob Stewart, Rick MacLeish as some who couldn't crack the Boston lineup because it was so full of talent!

Get back to 22 teams and we'd see awesome 3rd lines and alot more scoring and awesome play!

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Many in the hockey world have agreed with me that there is way too much expansion and the talent is really diluted. John Davidson was on a Rangers broadcast like 5 years ago in his first trip back to MSG as the Blues head man and told Sam and Joe that there are no 3rd lines anymore because of the excessive expansion! I said Bravo JD and wrote about it here!
20-22 teams would be great today and contract those 8 crappy franchises that don't draw flies and we'd see an amazing NHL and 3rd lines like Boston, NY, and Montreal enjoyed in the early 1970's!
Boston with Sanderson as their 3rd line center!
NY with Stemkowski as their 3rd line center!
Montreal with Pete Mahovlich or Henri Richard as their 3rd line center!
Remember Montreal with Beliveau, Lemaire, Richard, and Mahovlich as their 4 centers or Boston with Esposito, Stanfield, Sanderson, Walton, the Rangers with Ratelle, Tkaczuk, Stemkowski, Goyette and Bobby Rousseau playing powerplay specialist and part-time right winger because they were so deep at center ice!
The Rangers were so deep at center that they traded or left exposed in the expansion draft Orland Kurtenbach, Syl Apps, Juha Widing, Don Luce they were so deep at Center Ice!
Can you imagine having all those center iceman from 1970-71 in one organization that were NHL players and good players?
They had so many leftwingers that guys like Jarry and Egers couldn't make the Rangers or a guy like Mike Murphy at right wing and how about Moose Dupont and Steve Durbano on the blueline along with Al Hamilton and Mike Robitaille?
The Rangers were like eight deep in NHL talent and still never won the Cup in those years!
Montreal had guys like Houle, Tardif, Roberto, Mickey Redmond, who couldn't get regular icetime!
Boston had guys like Reggie Leach, Bob Stewart, Rick MacLeish as some who couldn't crack the Boston lineup because it was so full of talent!

Get back to 22 teams and we'd see awesome 3rd lines and alot more scoring and awesome play!

In the mid 70s, you had 18 NHL teams and the WHA topped out at 15, which is more teams than you have today. Before the WHA and when the NHL was still at just 14 teams, those lineups you mentioned were ridiculous. You also don't factor in that teams didn't draft guys until they were 20. There were no underagers playing until the WHA came along and some of those kids could play right away. Orr was an extremely rare exception coming up at 18, but others should have gotten a shot sooner. Guys like Redmond, MacLeish and Leach deserved to play and eventually they did. Teams could bury good players on a whim. The NHL has been a dumb, dinosaur league in so many ways over the years and it's still the case . . . . you might have heard something about the recent lockout.

If it wasn't for the WHA, the NHL would still probably have a defacto prejudice against American, Euro and underage players.

[mikebflorida]

I think the NHL is 6 teams too big.

If you look at how the game has changed over the years, in the 70's and 80's you had guys who could play AND fight and those are extremely rare today and then the designated fighter(s) era began with Dave Brown in my opinion being the first and other teams followed suit to the point where each team had 1 or 2 guys who did the majority of the fighting in the 90's and before the first lockout and 1, if not both tough guys would often get scratched and not play a full season.

Today? It's a rarity to see 2 tough guys on a team but there has been a bit of an arms race in the east this off season, even the Lightning picked up BJ Crombeen and kept Pierre-Cedric Labrie which is a mammoth change for them, last year they had Labrie for all of 14 games, I'm shocked that they kept him with the big club.

Team's 3 and 4th lines are often filled with AHL quality players who have no business being in the NHL, they just aren't very good so I completely disagree about the talent pool being thick, I think it's super thin and contraction of 6 teams like Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, Carolina, Tampa Bay, and Nashville would do more good than harm in my opinion, I think it would be much better for the league, especially if they are really trying to get rid of fighting.

I know, I know, I want my own team to go away? Of course not, but they lose money every year and have players on the roster who have no business being in the NHL, their 3rd and 4th lines are pretty lame and the same could be said of almost every team in the NHL. What teams have really good 3rd and 4th lines?

I could live with it if those 3rd and 4th lines had guys who fight a lot but for the Lightning I guess I'll just have to be happy with 2 guys who fight because that's twice as many as they had all last year when Ryan Malone and Eric Brewer were getting drilled every 10th game or so.

Perhaps there will be some talented players that come down the pike like a Cam Neeley, Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, guys who hit, score, and fight, the league is dreadfully thin of guys like that, we have Lucic, Simmonds, Ryan Malone to a lesser degree but in the same power forward mold, and maybe a handful more at most, it's pretty frustrating to watch because I think we all love those players, I love them a lot more than a designated goon who fights the other designated goon on the other team every 3rd game as he takes whole nights off to rest his hands.

Oh well, it could be worse but not a whole lot, the game today is NOTHING like it used to be and maybe it's just a phase or what the head honchos actually want, less hitting, less fighting, playoff type hockey with lots of power plays and lots of shootouts.

[spiderarms]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Very true and he lost his effect against the Habs in the 1976 finals when they wouldn't be intimidated.
Scotty Bowman always used muscle but he used and wanted smart muscle. He learned a lesson from the 1974 playoffs when he tried to goon it up against the Rangers with guys like Robinson, Larose, Shutt, and Pete Mahovlich playing dirty hockey and it backfired against him.
I always blamed the officials for not penalizing the Flyers as a team even more with all the Flyers BS that was unpenalized back in those days! Schultz was screwing himself wasting 10 minutes sitting in the box but it didn't affect the Flyers as a team! If the officials had handed out constant two minute penalties against Schultz and made the Flyers defend alot more powerplays, the BS would of stopped alot sooner!
The officials were gutless!

Let's face it, Schultz's routine was NEW to everyone but his INTIMIDATION was not limited to just hockey players. He was out of control at times and the Refs had no idea of how to handle him.

As the years went on his act was wearing thin, teams were loading up on tough-guys to combat him and the Refs were getting wary of his antics.

His trade from the Flyers symbolizes this.

His impact on the game is unquestionable and as far as him be "overrated", I totally disagree. HE EARNED EVERY BIT OF THE PRESS HE GOT!

But as you had stated in an earlier post about prolonging his career, I don't think he could have been able to continue to maintain his act for a prolonged career.

Everything was starting to catch up to him around the league with more fighters and NEW rules to combat him.

Dave Schultz was the "PERFECT STORM" for hockey fighting in the 70's.

He came in under the cover of night and exploded at the onset of dawn!!!

[mikebflorida]

Originally Posted by Stevens Lindros

472 PIMs in a season, awesome, though I find Laus' 39 fights in one even more impressive.

Bah! Laus was the designated tough guy on a crappy team, the Florida Stinkin Panthers, who didn't even make the playoffs.

Schultz's 74-75 season changed the way the game was played, the Flyers won 51 games and the Cup, the 2 don't even compare, you could argue that Schultz was the team's MVP that season, he gave guys like Clarke, Barber, etc loads of space on the ice and other guys like Dupont, Kelly, and Saleski the confidence to intimidate.

All Laus did was bust up his hands for a horrible team that never really appreciated him. I felt sorry for him.

[schpiv]

Originally Posted by Carkner

Welcome the the site, KOC. You make some really good points and started a great, fresh discussion. I agree Schultz's FIGHTING ABILITY is underrated by most. Probably because of the hype he received in the seventies. I think there basically has been a 30 year backlash against Schultz calling him overrated in order to counterbalance this hype....and that's what most of us have heard and think we have learned. Regardless of all that, I will say this: I would say Schultz is the number one FIGHTER of his generation. When I say "his generation" I mean players that began their careers 1972 or earlier, before the goon boom of the mid-late seventies. Who has fought and beaten more heavyweights than him during that era? Is there anyone he DIDN'T fight? The guy fought ALL the top guys of his era and had great success. The guy had power, a great chin, stamina, and a very good technical fighter as well. And again...most importantly..give me someone with a better card, or even close card...and had the same results. I think he was the Bob Probert of his generation. He took them all on and was the guy to beat. Didn't win them all, but neither did Probert and we don't hold that against him. If I'm wrong tell me who was better and why, using all the same criteria we use to judge the later fighters.

If memory serves me correctly, I dont think he ever found Wensink, Nystrom, Fotiu, or Big Jack McIlhargey..........

[mikebflorida]

Originally Posted by schpiv

If memory serves me correctly, I dont think he ever found Wensink, Nystrom, Fotiu, or Big Jack McIlhargey..........

He's got Jack Mac on his card.

He's also got Plager, Gassoff, Mulvey's, Howatt, Tiger, Gillies, O'Reilly, Cashman, Jonathan, Gord Lane, Behn Wilson, Kindrachuk, Delorme, Beck, Paiement, Maloney, Polonich, Danny Gare, Harold Snepsts, Garland, Walker, Magnuson, Schoenfeld, Ted Irvine, Vadnais, Hextall, Deadmarsh, Lanny, Korab, Larry Robinson, Durbano, Bouchard, Ted Harris, and a bunch of other lesser known guys.

Pretty much a who's who of hockey tough guys of the early to late 70's. Guess he just never met up with Wensink, but fought everyone else for the Bruins, some multiple times, and missed Nystrom but fought Gillies, Potvin, Lane, and Howatt.

Fotiu? Whatever. Fotiu's card has more holes than a donut factory.

It's safe to say that Schultz, like Probert or Brashear, fought everybody in his era.

He's also got 29 post season fights. Does anyone else come even close to that all time?

[Blues 34]

Great thread on the Hammer guys. I am too young to have seen him play so I won't **** the thread up with needless talk. Like I said I never saw him play but I love reading these old stories.

Great thread, keep em coming

[Schultz]

Another fight that's not talked about because it wasn't on tape was Schultz's fight with Gassoff. I have the fight on an audio tape and what a dandy it was. Schultz won the fight by a slim margin according to the announcers as Gassoff was going crazy at the end of the fight wanting to continue, maybe because he felt he didn't that good. The Houston fight was a sucker job. I also has this fight on an audio tape. The fought to a draw an both fell to the ice. When they got back up Houston landed a punch over the linesman while Schultz was being tied up by the other linesman. The Gassoff fight has to rank up there along with the Maloney fight as The Hammer's 2 biggest wins.

[schpiv]

Big Mike from FLA..........I was merely trying to answer the question of who he didnt fight..........Didnt see Big Mac registered so thanks for the info................As far as Fotiu goes, I dont even touch that....guy missed alot of games over the years so maybe, just maybe more guys would have danced with him had he gotten those games in, I just never really bought into the whole everyone feared him thing............I am an Islanders fan and its not even a Isles hatred for Rags thing ya know.

As far as Schultz goes, I love the guy for what he did for hockey and made it rough and tumble and yeah he fought the legit guys as well as alot of lesser knowns, I just didnt care for his antics and how he got rescued when he was finally getting what was eventually coming to him....................

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

I think the NHL is 6 teams too big.

If you look at how the game has changed over the years, in the 70's and 80's you had guys who could play AND fight and those are extremely rare today and then the designated fighter(s) era began with Dave Brown in my opinion being the first and other teams followed suit to the point where each team had 1 or 2 guys who did the majority of the fighting in the 90's and before the first lockout and 1, if not both tough guys would often get scratched and not play a full season.

Today? It's a rarity to see 2 tough guys on a team but there has been a bit of an arms race in the east this off season, even the Lightning picked up BJ Crombeen and kept Pierre-Cedric Labrie which is a mammoth change for them, last year they had Labrie for all of 14 games, I'm shocked that they kept him with the big club.

Team's 3 and 4th lines are often filled with AHL quality players who have no business being in the NHL, they just aren't very good so I completely disagree about the talent pool being thick, I think it's super thin and contraction of 6 teams like Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, Carolina, Tampa Bay, and Nashville would do more good than harm in my opinion, I think it would be much better for the league, especially if they are really trying to get rid of fighting.

I know, I know, I want my own team to go away? Of course not, but they lose money every year and have players on the roster who have no business being in the NHL, their 3rd and 4th lines are pretty lame and the same could be said of almost every team in the NHL. What teams have really good 3rd and 4th lines?

I could live with it if those 3rd and 4th lines had guys who fight a lot but for the Lightning I guess I'll just have to be happy with 2 guys who fight because that's twice as many as they had all last year when Ryan Malone and Eric Brewer were getting drilled every 10th game or so.

Perhaps there will be some talented players that come down the pike like a Cam Neeley, Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, guys who hit, score, and fight, the league is dreadfully thin of guys like that, we have Lucic, Simmonds, Ryan Malone to a lesser degree but in the same power forward mold, and maybe a handful more at most, it's pretty frustrating to watch because I think we all love those players, I love them a lot more than a designated goon who fights the other designated goon on the other team every 3rd game as he takes whole nights off to rest his hands.

Oh well, it could be worse but not a whole lot, the game today is NOTHING like it used to be and maybe it's just a phase or what the head honchos actually want, less hitting, less fighting, playoff type hockey with lots of power plays and lots of shootouts.

I wrote 20 to 22 but 24 would be great also. Not as great but still great! The problem is the NHLPA would never allow 140 jobs to be lost if we went down to 24 teams or 180 jobs if we went down to 22 teams.
Imagine 540 NHL players vs the 700 that we see now?
That would be some awesome hockey!
EXPANSION=BETTMAN and this watered down product and poor attendance in some markets and it is his fault with his and the owners greed!
Not only did Bettman water down the NHL but he fuc*ed up the 1995, 2005 and 2013 seasons!
Bettman sucks!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

Let's face it, Schultz's routine was NEW to everyone but his INTIMIDATION was not limited to just hockey players. He was out of control at times and the Refs had no idea of how to handle him.

As the years went on his act was wearing thin, teams were loading up on tough-guys to combat him and the Refs were getting wary of his antics.

His trade from the Flyers symbolizes this.

His impact on the game is unquestionable and as far as him be "overrated", I totally disagree. HE EARNED EVERY BIT OF THE PRESS HE GOT!

But as you had stated in an earlier post about prolonging his career, I don't think he could have been able to continue to maintain his act for a prolonged career.

Everything was starting to catch up to him around the league with more fighters and NEW rules to combat him.

Dave Schultz was the "PERFECT STORM" for hockey fighting in the 70's.

He came in under the cover of night and exploded at the onset of dawn!!!

So many want to blame the Flyers for Schultz but I remember him in Pittsburgh being a screwball selfish look at me pric* also getting 405 minutes combined between Pittsburgh and LA.
Lets face it, he loved the spotlight and all the attention that he received. He was miserable in LA because in those days LA was like Siberia and noone saw the Kings play unless if your team was there for a road game and then half the assholes in the Forum wouldn't sit the hell down and the play was getting blocked by the fans and poor camera shots!
Clarence Campbell was slow to react also because the Flyers were a big hit on the road even selling out joints like Kansas City for chrissakes! The best team for road attendance were the Flyers because of all the antics and fighting!
Fans love car wrecks, fights, and blood!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by mikebflorida

Bah! Laus was the designated tough guy on a crappy team, the Florida Stinkin Panthers, who didn't even make the playoffs.

Schultz's 74-75 season changed the way the game was played, the Flyers won 51 games and the Cup, the 2 don't even compare, you could argue that Schultz was the team's MVP that season, he gave guys like Clarke, Barber, etc loads of space on the ice and other guys like Dupont, Kelly, and Saleski the confidence to intimidate.

All Laus did was bust up his hands for a horrible team that never really appreciated him. I felt sorry for him.

Lets not forget a very important factor! The Flyers won 2 Cups not because of Dave Schultz or the fighting but because Bernie Parent stood on his head for 2 years and was amazing in net!
He stoned the Rangers in the 3rd period time and time again late and held on for a 4-3 win in game 7 when Schultz beat up Rolfe!
The Rangers were outshot badly in the first two periods and Giacomin was great and they dominated the 3rd period and only scored twice but the last 5 minutes Parent owned and held on for a tough 4-3 win!
People who know nothing about the Schultz/Rolfe game assume that the Flyers won like 6-2 but the game was 4-3 and it was the Rangers who dominated the 3rd period and especially the last 10 minutes or so! Remember that with a minute left with the Rangers on the attack, they got called for that bogus too many men on the ice penalty and Hadfield was sent to the box where he was seen laughing and drinking a fan's beer and when Emile Francis was told about it went nuts and Hadfield was gone to Pittsburgh quickly for Nick Beverley!
The 1976 finals were all close games with three being one goal games but Rick MacLeish was out with a broken leg and Bernie Parent was injured also and didn't play against Montreal! MacLeish scored 24 goals in 34 games in the Flyers two Cup years and was a great player in those playoffs!
A healthy Bernie Parent and a healthy Rick MacLeish and the Flyers may have won 3 Cups in a row even with Montreal not intimidated!
Don't ever forget about Bernie Parent!