Lets give it up for the hammer

[bigjack]

BTW, Excellent opinions and give and take in this thread and I would point out something else!
Speed is fantastic-see Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey but you can be a great skater even if you are a slow skater.
Phil Esposito and Ron Greschner come to mind as excellent skaters but slower skaters. They had fantastic balance and the ability to stop on a dime and make quick sharp turns! Jagr comes to mind as another excellent skater who wasn't fast!
Dave Schultz wasn't fast but he was far from a poor skater. He had very good balance and an ability to stop quickly and turn sharply! Guys like Grimson and Dave Brown were horrible skaters and Fotiu was alot faster than Schultz was but I'd take Schultz as a skater because Schultz could make sharp turns and stop on a dime with great balance!
Fotiu took wide turns and his balance wasn't great!
Schultz was a better skater than guys like Nystrom and O'Reilly as an example!
It is great to be a Mike Gartner as a skater but you can be a slower skater and still be a very good skater-just not as fast!

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by bigjack

I don't understand the backpeddling quote. I'm not changing my mind at all and am showing why my comments make alot of sense!
Nystrom was not a better skater than Schultz was and scored 39, 39, 44, 47, and 30 points between 1978 to 1983 when the league scoring really opened up and had penalty minute totals of 113, 94, 145, 103, and 98 so he was taking a regular shift and not spending over 380 minutes a year in the box like Schultz did from 1973 to 1978.
Nystrom averaged 40 points over those 5 years in a much more wideopen NHL and in the tighter checking NHL Schultz averaged 35 points with a ridiculous amount of penalty minutes!
O'Reilly did have 2 great years as you point out but basically was a 45 point scorer over his other eight full seasons!
Schultz was remarkably consistent and never had a 50 to 60 point year to make his average appear higher! His totally excessive penalty totals hurt his production in a big way because instead of playing hockey, he was wasting his time sitting out 10 minute misconduct penalties!
Schultz was the King of the misconduct penalty!
Like I wrote, I'm not saying anything crazy about Schultz like he would be a 55-80 point man but 40 to 50 points is fair and reasonable!

Splitting the difference and saying Schultz could have been a 45 point man is a push in my view. He averaged 30 points his first 6 years in the league with 337 PMs. Averaging 45 pts those years would be a 50% production increase.
I don't disagree with your point that if Schultz focused more on that end of his game he could have scored more . . . but that's not what made him valuable. If Philly wanted the offense, they could have plugged someone else in on that 3rd line, especially Kelly, who was the more skilled player even though they used him in a 4th line role when both were with the Flyers.

And it's not like the PMs necessarily kill your production. In Tiger's first 6 years he averaged 317 PMs, very close to Schultz' total AND he averaged 47 points.

O'Reilly actually averaged a PPG on the nose over a 3 season stretch and scored 52 pts in 64 playoff games over a 6 season stretch. Nystrom had seven 20 goal seasons.

Regardless of the numbers he might have produced, if Schultz had worked on his game more he might have extended his career. He was out of the league at 30. I think there was a bit of burn out there.

[spiderarms]

Originally Posted by battleship25

Great post Spider' , but I know I'm splitting hairs , but Dave Brown and Bob Probert were hardly "white horse" good guys . Especially Brown, he bullied and intimidated smaller players ( not as bad as Schultz) at will. Probie as well had so many runs at the goalie, knocking around guys like Ciccarrelli, with Probert - he didn't seem to care who it was, he was a s**t disturber -that's why he had sooo many fights. But yes he did stick up for teammates and was great at that. But usually he started it with a smaller player..I remember him going after Denis Savard, Ciccarelli(pita), and dozens of other small players.... like Schultz it was part of his game INTIMIDATION. He got Savard to retaliate and high stick Probert (getting a 5 min penalty)...make no mistake Probie was gonna get in his head. Brown pretty much a goon, worthless player, instigator and was one of the best of all time.
Fotiu on occasion was a bully , he hit defenseless goalies, knocked out mild mannered vcr Kevin McCrathy ...don't get me wrong I have no problem with any of this ...I just think the only guy on the list that was a true "white horse guy" was Gillies. Almost to a fault, he was very clean and was respected for his clean play ( one of the major reasons for his low fight totals) and also if enraged he could kill you. But he rarely started stuff. Every coach told their players "leave Gillies alone" when he's mellow he's not nearly as valuable as when he was fired up.
O'Reilly is tough , mostly white hat but saw him too many times bully smaller guys ...but it wasn't because they were smaller...he treated everyone the same..wasn't really dirty but did cause an awful lot of trouble ( reason for his high fight totals). Like SAID , SPLITTING HAIRS !!

I did not mean to characterize Probert, Brown, O'Reilly, Fotiu and Gillies as "ANGELS" but only to refer them "riding in on a white horses" for THEIR OWN TEAMATES and their willingness to defend them from the Dave Schultz antics of the world.

You are correct in your statements that in the case with all but perhaps Gillies, they had an "EDGE" of aggression and it was that dimension that enhanced their ability to protect their very own players by garnering fear around the league.

Good call as usual B25!!!

[spiderarms]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Schultz could of still played very tough and mean and yet smart like a Clark Gillies did. Schultz would of scored alot more if he wasn't wasting his playing time sitting out wasted meaningless 10 minute misconduct penalties for his antics that delayed the game for like 10 minutes!
Nystrom was plenty tough getting around 100 minutes a season and Gordie Howe used to get tons of room on the ice and he wasn't a fighter and didn't spend 380 minutes a year in the box!
Scott Stevens as a Devil really cut down his stupid penalties and yet was really mean and intimidating and a huge force on the ice! He was a 200+ penalty minute guy as a Capital and yet in his last 10 years as a Devil only went over 100 minutes twice with 100 and 103 and yet was one rat bastard SOB to play against! He wasn't more mellow, he was just very smart and kept his emotions under control and his ass out of the penalty box!

No doubt about it, Schultz had more misconducts than he should have. But I also believe to some degree that he was "intimidating" the referees by saying "I don't care what you do to me, I'm going to play my game".

Had the referees handed out more two minute unsportsmanlike penalties with the 10 minute misconducts, which would have had a negative effect on the TEAM, Schultz may have toned it down.

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

No doubt about it, Schultz had more misconducts than he should have. But I also believe to some degree that he was "intimidating" the referees by saying "I don't care what you do to me, I'm going to play my game".

Had the referees handed out more two minute unsportsmanlike penalties with the 10 minute misconducts, which would have had a negative effect on the TEAM, Schultz may have toned it down.

Eventually, the returns diminished for Schultz. A big place where his act wore thin was with the league and the officials. Unsportsmanlike minors, suspensions for multiple game misconducts in a season, the instigator rule, lengthy suspensions for dumping the benches . . . these rule changes didn't all start with the 70s Flyers and Schultz but they all trace back to them. Those Flyers took advantage of the rules and the way games were called, there's no doubt about that.

Here's some typical prime Schultz. He was entertaining.

schultz thumbs his nose at MLG crowd - YouTube

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Flyer_Frank

Splitting the difference and saying Schultz could have been a 45 point man is a push in my view. He averaged 30 points his first 6 years in the league with 337 PMs. Averaging 45 pts those years would be a 50% production increase.
I don't disagree with your point that if Schultz focused more on that end of his game he could have scored more . . . but that's not what made him valuable. If Philly wanted the offense, they could have plugged someone else in on that 3rd line, especially Kelly, who was the more skilled player even though they used him in a 4th line role when both were with the Flyers.

And it's not like the PMs necessarily kill your production. In Tiger's first 6 years he averaged 317 PMs, very close to Schultz' total AND he averaged 47 points.

O'Reilly actually averaged a PPG on the nose over a 3 season stretch and scored 52 pts in 64 playoff games over a 6 season stretch. Nystrom had seven 20 goal seasons.

Regardless of the numbers he might have produced, if Schultz had worked on his game more he might have extended his career. He was out of the league at 30. I think there was a bit of burn out there.

Tiger played with Ruskowski and Bryan Trottier in juniors and had great numbers like years over 100 points and could finish and score goals. That was where he was better than Schultz. Schultz did score a hattrick against the Rangers playing as Bobby Clarke's left winger one night and had a 20 goal season but as I wrote was an excellent passer and could handle the puck but wasn't the finisher that the Tiger was!
The Tiger had the hands to be a consistent 30 to 35 goal man if he stayed out of the box a little more often also!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

No doubt about it, Schultz had more misconducts than he should have. But I also believe to some degree that he was "intimidating" the referees by saying "I don't care what you do to me, I'm going to play my game".

Had the referees handed out more two minute unsportsmanlike penalties with the 10 minute misconducts, which would have had a negative effect on the TEAM, Schultz may have toned it down.

Very true and he lost his effect against the Habs in the 1976 finals when they wouldn't be intimidated.
Scotty Bowman always used muscle but he used and wanted smart muscle. He learned a lesson from the 1974 playoffs when he tried to goon it up against the Rangers with guys like Robinson, Larose, Shutt, and Pete Mahovlich playing dirty hockey and it backfired against him.
I always blamed the officials for not penalizing the Flyers as a team even more with all the Flyers BS that was unpenalized back in those days! Schultz was screwing himself wasting 10 minutes sitting in the box but it didn't affect the Flyers as a team! If the officials had handed out constant two minute penalties against Schultz and made the Flyers defend alot more powerplays, the BS would of stopped alot sooner!
The officials were gutless!

[Stevens Lindros]

472 PIMs in a season, awesome, though I find Laus' 39 fights in one even more impressive.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Stevens Lindros

472 PIMs in a season, awesome, though I find Laus' 39 fights in one even more impressive.

How did his hands survive?
All the fighting as a Red Wing destroyed Kocur's hands! He had what 377 minutes in 59 games as a rookie with Brad Park as his coach?
The irony of that question is I just remembered Kocur fighting Laus as a lefty one night as a Ranger because his right hand was so fuc*ed up!
It's why I always gave Kocur a pass when Rangers fans would get angry that Kocur didn't fight more or play like in his Detroit days!
How could he, his hands were destroyed!

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Tiger played with Ruskowski and Bryan Trottier in juniors and had great numbers like years over 100 points and could finish and score goals. That was where he was better than Schultz. Schultz did score a hattrick against the Rangers playing as Bobby Clarke's left winger one night and had a 20 goal season but as I wrote was an excellent passer and could handle the puck but wasn't the finisher that the Tiger was!
The Tiger had the hands to be a consistent 30 to 35 goal man if he stayed out of the box a little more often also!

If everybody worked on their game and stayed out of the box, there wouldn't be a site here.

I remember the hat trick against the Rags, it was right around Christmas time. The Big Whistle was not thrilled at having no choice but to give Schultz his first star of the game.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Flyer_Frank

If everybody worked on their game and stayed out of the box, there wouldn't be a site here.

Good point!
I hated Schultz's gut but am just being fair and objective with him. If he played his cards smart and right, he would of been more productive and lasted alot longer!

[Cat Smasher]

Everything you ever heard was Davie Schultz and the Broad Street Bullies, Shultz and the boys, Dave Schultz and the Broad Street Bullies.

I don't think he is under-rated at all. He is applauded for what he did for the game, making other teams go out and get, not one or two, but even a handful of tough guys. Make no doubts about is as everyone knows that whole team and era was, something hockey dreams are made of, but it was always Dave Schultz and the Broad Street Bullies.

[Flyer_Frank]

FWIW, the first season the Flyers won the cup, 73-74, they had 55 fights all season, Schultz had 18 of them. They ramped things up for the playoffs with 26 however, but that 55 number is surprisingly low considering how much attention those BSB teams got.

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by Flyer_Frank

If everybody worked on their game and stayed out of the box, there wouldn't be a site here.

I remember the hat trick against the Rags, it was right around Christmas time. The Big Whistle was not thrilled at having no choice but to give Schultz his first star of the game.

we wont see the likes of schultz or that era ever again . we all have to remember after the expansion doubled the playing jobs the quality of the play went into the toilet that gave the opportunity for teams to find another way to win games beyond skill and poof you had the flyers i can remember pre flyers day watching my kings we would get excited by a big check or scrum and that odd fight cowboy flett vs booby orr ross lonsberry vs vick hatfield gilles maronte vs bobby baun the fights came from actual incidents in the game so were totally unexpected so was a different dynamic . dave is immortal of coarse because he was a very averange player who changed the game into a strong arms competition where everybody had to match toughness . even the holier then thou canadians had to answer with Robinson trembly risebrou before they started winning cups again . Maybe somebody else would of done the same thing but dave and the word GOON will ever be synonyms in hockey lore

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by king of culver

we wont see the likes of schultz or that era ever again . we all have to remember after the expansion doubled the playing jobs the quality of the play went into the toilet that gave the opportunity for teams to find another way to win games beyond skill and poof you had the flyers i can remember pre flyers day watching my kings we would get excited by a big check or scrum and that odd fight cowboy flett vs booby orr ross lonsberry vs vick hatfield gilles maronte vs bobby baun the fights came from actual incidents in the game so were totally unexpected so was a different dynamic . dave is immortal of coarse because he was a very averange player who changed the game into a strong arms competition where everybody had to match toughness . even the holier then thou canadians had to answer with Robinson trembly risebrou before they started winning cups again . Maybe somebody else would of done the same thing but dave and the word GOON will ever be synonyms in hockey lore

Arguably, it was when the WHA teams merged into the NHL that cost Schultz his job. 21 teams down from a peak of more than 30 when both leagues had a full stock of teams, cost a lot of guys. Add to that a growing talent pool with more Euros and Americans plus guys were getting bigger with more focus on skating and the game was great then and pretty well stayed that way until the clutch-and-grab trapping days of the mid-90s and beyond.

With the much bigger talent pool of today, I have no problem with a 30 team league, I think the talent can support it. I don't want to see any expansion though.