Lets give it up for the hammer

[FistofFury]

Originally Posted by ewen21

Peter Worrell would murder Schultz on a regular basis if they played against one another.

What in old-timers hockey?

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

Like your style of jumping out the gate like a wild man

Your point 4 is a remarkbale feat that I agree with

4 longevity..like beat johnthon and ben wilson when he was over the hill playing for kings and peiguines

HE was a fading legend with all the young guns wanting a shot and he not only shows up but goes toe to toe with knockout king johnathon and top 3 all timer wilson both at peak and comes out on top if that is not top 10 stuff then what is ?

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by king of culver

4 longevity..like beat johnthon and ben wilson when he was over the hill playing for kings and peiguines

HE was a fading legend with all the young guns wanting a shot and he not only shows up but goes toe to toe with knockout king johnathon and top 3 all timer wilson both at peak and comes out on top if that is not top 10 stuff then what is ?

...there is already a built in excuse for Wilson that is always bantied about and that is he was still green around the gills - That was a good fight, however, with both guys landing, but IMO you gotta give it to Shultz out of deference as he was the elder statesman and - the ole tie goes to the runner, in this case Shultz's place in history at that time and even now should have him with the nod/edge/victory - Wilson hit him with some good shots including his feared upper-cut, all for naught however, a further testament to Shultz's granite chin

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

...there is already a built in excuse for Wilson that is always bantied about and that is he was still green around the gills - That was a good fight, however, with both guys landing, but IMO you gotta give it to Shultz out of deference as he was the elder statesman and - the ole tie goes to the runner, in this case Shultz's place in history at that time and even now should have him with the nod/edge/victory - Wilson hit him with some good shots including his feared upper-cut, all for naught however, a further testament to Shultz's granite chin

DAVE has really self destructed his own legacy with all his published remarks about being afraid of oriley avoiding certain guys ect i figure the revisionist history he is telling is either post concussion syndrome or posturing for..well who knows what for From footage and live viewing at the time of his playing career i never saw any fear or reluctance from dave to engage ANYBODY
he looked for ****z from anybody and gave as well as he would take

[Schultz]

When I talked to Schultz a few years ago and asked him about what he said in the book about fearing certain players he claimed that Fischler made up stuff that he never said.

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by Schultz

When I talked to Schultz a few years ago and asked him about what he said in the book about fearing certain players he claimed that Fischler made up stuff that he never said.

thats good old stan for you i remember as a teen reading his derek sanderson biography "i've got to be me" i think just like jim boutans expose on baseball 'ball four' it was the first tell all book for the sport and i guess was pre drug addict derek thou he did come across as a boisterous drunk..but how would i know about those guys

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by king of culver

I think i can make a very good case for dave the hammer schultz as the all time most underatted fighter in hockey here are some bullet points

1 endurance... nobody in the 70's had schultz endurance he kept going even when grabed by two linesman

2 chin of stone..how many times koed or kded i count never but a few slips haters like to call kd's

3 never slaughter in fight...of coarse had loses but was he slaughter by robinson or gillies NO

4 longevity..like beat johnthon and ben wilson when he was over the hill playing for kings and peiguines

5 heart..yes he is a whinny apologists for fighting now but when played nobody brought as much excitement as schultzj

6-beat dan maloney..as i mentioned it another thread i saw that famous fight live on ktla chanel 5 los angeles and my beloved dangerous dan lost to schultz in philliy dave had taken a run at don kozak along right wing boards in kings end dan ran from behind drop gloves landed a sucker shot before schultz squared up i was all excited danny boy would finish him off but when he moved inside dave nutralized dans right got off two strong jabs of his own rocked dan for a narrow but clean win

Schultz was his own worst enemy and then after he was finished and done cried about how he was screwed!
He was a good fighter, he had skills enough to be able to handle left wing duty up with Clarke when Shero desired, he should of had a career like Tiger Williams but his selfish caveman act grew tiring and his constant "look at me, look at me act" and excessive misconducts and stupid penalties didn't help his cause at all!
It's very telling that the great Scotty Bowman had a usage for guys like Joe Kocur in a 3rd line checking role and yet had little use for Schultz and Probert!
If Schultz had played his cards right, he would of been a 40 point to 50 point man and physical player like Nystrom, O'Reilly, Maloney, Holmgren, Plett, Williams, Cashman to name just a few and played in over 700 games in his career! Holmgren would of played in over 700 games if his shoulders from his massive body checks didn't ruin his career ala Bubba Beck!

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Schultz was his own worst enemy and then after he was finished and done cried about how he was screwed!
He was a good fighter, he had skills enough to be able to handle left wing duty up with Clarke when Shero desired, he should of had a career like Tiger Williams but his selfish caveman act grew tiring and his constant "look at me, look at me act" and excessive misconducts and stupid penalties didn't help his cause at all!
It's very telling that the great Scotty Bowman had a usage for guys like Joe Kocur in a 3rd line checking role and yet had little use for Schultz and Probert!
If Schultz had played his cards right, he would of been a 40 point to 50 point man and physical player like Nystrom, O'Reilly, Maloney, Holmgren, Plett, Williams, Cashman to name just a few and played in over 700 games in his career! Holmgren would of played in over 700 games if his shoulders from his massive body checks didn't ruin his career ala Bubba Beck!

Very good points jack and thou i don't think his skill set was up to some of the guys you mention i agree schould of had a much better career . Daves problem was that he had no peer..he was not a enforcer but the first pure hockey goon no reference point to draw on no road map so like all trailblazzers he made up the rules as went along made made some poor choices but still was all in right to the end as his late victories over legends attest he did not change with the game he CHANGED the game no apologies till post career

[Flyer_Frank]

As a player, I think the one 20 goal year and 2 cups have gotten Schultz a little overrated in that department. His skating was OK for his day. His size was good and he did finish his checks, played hard, his hands were so-so. There were a lot of tough players in the league then who were much better players and Dave Schultz could only have had a career like Tiger, Cashman, O'Reilly in his dreams. Jack makes a fair point about Schultz getting full of himself and his act did wear thin, but I think he's overrating Schultz' skills. I don't think Schultz was overrated as a fighter though. He was one of the top guys in the league.

Dave "The Hammer" Schultz vs. Norm...

[srehm1]

I thought the Schultz-Wilson fight was a draw. I don't care who was the elder statesman...

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by srehm1

I thought the Schultz-Wilson fight was a draw. I don't care who was the elder statesman...

If you hate Wilson he lost the fight to Schultz , however if like or hate both ..it's a draw...neither really able to land much at all...perfect lock out fight!!

BJ, I know what you meant about Bowman, but on the ice Probert was 5 times the player JK was, and perhaps twice the player Schultz was. But yes Bowman had little tolerance for Probies off ice issues. Make no mistake , PROBIES teammates loved him....in the dressing room , but especially on the ice. He was misused by the Hawks (just like they did to Battleship Kelly) and relegated to checking line and fourth line duty..but at his best he was I would say a greater impact on a game than Gillies- I saw plenty of both of them, and feel comfortable saying that. Gillies was a better skater , but both hand great hands and Probert's effect on d-men was incredible. Made some of the best d-men rush their passes , or look over their shoulder, he had a great "feel" for the game. Many times Gillies was a ghost out there , but Probie was usually revved up and you always knew when he was out on the ice.
culver, welcome to the site..BTW , I believe Schultz was dropped badly by Paul Mulvey, but yes later in his career. He had a great chin, took some huge shots from Jonathan ( legs buckled by a left by Stan) but stayed up and continued punching. Also one of the best fights he was in was during the brawl vs VCR when he fought Snepts 3 times.
Did you happen to catch Maloney fight vs Battleship Kelly at the Fab Forum?

I saw their crap fight in PIT when Maloney was with DET . Nothing much. But would've loved to have seen the fight in LA .Heard Maloney won ( for the belt) the belt , because Kelly beat Schultz twice in the same game( while with the Blues).

[king of culver]

Originally Posted by battleship25

If you hate Wilson he lost the fight to Schultz , however if like or hate both ..it's a draw...neither really able to land much at all...perfect lock out fight!!

BJ, I know what you meant about Bowman, but on the ice Probert was 5 times the player JK was, and perhaps twice the player Schultz was. But yes Bowman had little tolerance for Probies off ice issues. Make no mistake , PROBIES teammates loved him....in the dressing room , but especially on the ice. He was misused by the Hawks (just like they did to Battleship Kelly) and relegated to checking line and fourth line duty..but at his best he was I would say a greater impact on a game than Gillies- I saw plenty of both of them, and feel comfortable saying that. Gillies was a better skater , but both hand great hands and Probert's effect on d-men was incredible. Made some of the best d-men rush their passes , or look over their shoulder, he had a great "feel" for the game. Many times Gillies was a ghost out there , but Probie was usually revved up and you always knew when he was out on the ice.
culver, welcome to the site..BTW , I believe Schultz was dropped badly by Paul Mulvey, but yes later in his career. He had a great chin, took some huge shots from Jonathan ( legs buckled by a left by Stan) but stayed up and continued punching. Also one of the best fights he was in was during the brawl vs VCR when he fought Snepts 3 times.
Did you happen to catch Maloney fight vs Battleship Kelly at the Fab Forum?

I saw their crap fight in PIT when Maloney was with DET . Nothing much. But would've loved to have seen the fight in LA .Heard Maloney won ( for the belt) the belt , because Kelly beat Schultz twice in the same game( while with the Blues).

thanks for the welcome..did see the fight and nobody really landed thou they were trowing haymakers i guess maloney haymakers looked better and he landed on top no win for anybody really one thing i have to say is dans gloves would almost always come off first so always seemed to get the jump like in the schultz fight who would almost always do a fair fight was burt wilson and his victory over ben wilson was clean as can be the worst loss of bens life he was hanging on really at the end

[spiderarms]

Lot's of good points brought up by posters and some that are NOT so good.

Schultz was unique in what he did, he was bold, intimidating and at times, uncontrolable. He fought alot of tough guys in the NHL but he also JUMPED many Non-fighters as well (Dale Rolfe, Rick Middleton etc).

But as we all know, this was a part of his game, INTIMIDATION.

Could he fight? Absolutely and he was very good at it.

Could he play hockey? Yes at a respectable level.

But make no mistake about it, he was in a Flyer uniform to INTIMIDATE first and foremost. IMO, without the fear factor of his tactics, his ability to produce points would have been greatly reduced and saying that he could have been on a "power forward" level would be dramatically overstated.

I don't believe he had the skill level of some of the other guys mentioned in this thread. Certainly not in skating ability.

A sign of his impact on the times is that when you beat Dave Schultz, you almost had an instant reputation around the league.

Many of his loses have already been mentioned:

Pierre Bouchard (Second Fight, Loss), I believe they fought three times.
J.Bob Kelly (Two Fights when he was with St.Louis, both Loses)
Larry Robinson (Big National TV Loss)
Clark Gillies(Big Loss in Second fight, SAVED by Andre Dupont-Third Man)

In the marathon brawl with Harold Snepts, which was actual three separate fights, I have to give it to Snepts as he handled Schultz very well-TWICE.
He knocked him down the first time with Schultz on his back and skates in the air, he threw him down a second time before they went at it a third time, a short, non eventful bout, as they were both gased.

One fight that was NOT mentioned, however, is Schultz's loss to young Paul Holmgren when he first came back to the Spectrum. It was a beating he talked about in an interview later on. Schultz had called him out during a scrum. That decision was not a good one for Schultz.

The great toe to toe fight with Stan Jonathan was a VERY CLOSE fight and Jonathan did very well, landing some great shots on Schultz.

The fight with Behn Wilson, was a DRAW, IMO. Both tied up very well and neither landed anything major as Wilson stepped in for Andre Dupont, who later fought Schultz, I believe in the same game.

In these three fights against Holmgren, Jonathan and Wilson, as was stated earlier, it was later on in Schultz's career BUT on the other side of the coin, it was Holmgren's, Jonathan's and Wilson's "ROOKIE" NHL seasons as well.

Relevant?

IMO, the more you fight TOP FLIGHT competition at the NHL level, the better you get. (Examples: Stu Grimson, Rob Ray etc.) That's why I take a guys experience level as a key element in the big picture of the fight.

Schultz definitely made a statement in the 70's and showed a side of hockey that would entertain us for 40 years to come. For that, he will always have a place in any conversations relating to hockey fights on this site!

[Flyer_Frank]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

Could he play hockey? Yes at a respectable level.

But make no mistake about it, he was in a Flyer uniform to INTIMIDATE first and foremost. IMO, without the fear factor of his tactics, his ability to produce points would have been greatly reduced and saying that he could have been on a "power forward" level would be dramatically overstated.

I don't believe he had the skill level of some of the other guys mentioned in this thread. Certainly not in skating ability.

A sign of his impact on the times is that when you beat Dave Schultz, you almost had an instant reputation around the league.

Many of his loses have already been mentioned:

Pierre Bouchard (Second Fight, Loss), I believe they fought three times.
J.Bob Kelly (Two Fights when he was with St.Louis, both Loses)
Larry Robinson (Big National TV Loss)
Clark Gillies(Big Loss in Second fight, SAVED by Andre Dupont-Third Man)

I think we're about on the same page here. As often as Schultz fought, no one is going to go undefeated. The Ken Houston fight got a lot of attention too. But that wasn't the point of Schultz' game. I'm sure a great many players were intimidated by Schultz, but I'm equally certainly damn near everybody was agitated by him.

When you look at his fight card, he took on all the tough guys, which was absolutely to his credit, but there are also a lot of all star caliber players who had no business dropping the gloves with Schultz and also Top 4 defensemen. He was a terror around the net, after whistles and such and getting a top 4 Dman into a tiring fight, agitating the goalie, that was a great tradeoff for a 3rd line winger whose spot was generally taken by someone like Hound Kelly when Schultz sat in the box. Schultz did sacrifice for the team, it was effective.

[mikebflorida]

I love Dave Schultz for a lot of reasons, he took his job very seriously and made a good career for himself.

He wasn't the best fighter of his generation but he was damn good, I have him in the top 25 all time because he WAS a very good fighter, not just a mean one but he threw fast, hard, and could take a punch, he had good balance, and was one of the most intimidating players ever.

He could lose but it wasn't often and he has some of the most memorable video of any fighter, you have to admit, he certainly wasn't boring!

Wilson, Brown, and Berube rank ahead of him on the all time list for Flyer fighters but he still makes my top 25, around 22nd I think.

As for him losing to Peter Worrel, that's just a stupid argument that I get really sick of people saying, that so and so would lose to so and so because so and so was smaller and so and so was bigger and took more vitamins and didn't smoke or drink beer. Fiddlestix. A hockey fight is the same during Peter Worrel's playing days as it was during Dave Schultz's playing days, they grab on and throw punches and sure, Peter might win but certainly Schultz might win too, Worrel lost plenty of fights, so did Twist, so did Boogaard, huge guys, much bigger than Schultz in his playing days but if you could magically time warp Schultz into Worrel's era, he'd probably be a much different guy, bigger, stronger, and more level headed.

I hate those arguments. You think Nystrom wouldn't fare well in the 90's? How about Behn Wilson? Or Clark Gillies? Or Dave Schultz?

They'd be just fine. I'd love nothing more than to see Stan Jonathan whip Peter Worrel's big, dumb a$$ at 5'8 175 pounds.