John Wensink vs Nick Fotiu

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by I like Boobs

Nice article on Mr Cunningham who suffered from strokes later in life, and died when he was hit by a train.

Sad story - Condolences to family friends - RIP Jim Cunningham.

[srehm1]

yeah, cash couldn't fight...

Wayne Cashman vs Garry Howatt Round 2 NO SOUND ...

Islanders vs Bruins, 1980 Playoffs Game 2 -...

[srehm1]

Fotiu kind of reminds me of...



Lemme at'em! I'll splat'em!

[spiderarms]

Great posts guys but lets get pasted this "scared" crap. Both of these guys have earned at least that!

Fotiu wins this encounter IMO. He had too quick a hand speed and could easily match Wensink in strength and balance. Of the two guys, Fotiu was a much better enforcer and intimidator for his team. If Fotiu had been on Don Cherry's team he would have been a bigger legend than he is today and would have had many 20 goal seasons to boot!

For those Fotiu haters, remember, Nick was ALONE, he had NO help. So anytime you guys want to question his courage think long and hard about it. How many of your favorites would go into the spectrum in Philadelphia and take on 4 or 5 heavy's by themselve with no backup? He only fought when he had too.

IMO, Wensink was vastly overrated and was not even the Bruins team enforcer or in fact best fighter, that was Terry O'Reilly and Stan Jonathan.

Wensink's primary role with the Bruins was to be their designated fighter but O'Reilly was fighting the other teams heavy's even though he was a key hockey player for the team. Wensink reputation went a long way with his fight with Behn Wilson and Battleship Kelly. Aside from that, his fight card was lacking losing to guys he shouldn't have and he did not fare very well when he had his opportunities (Hoyda, Nystrom etc.) Wensink was a clutch and grabber, which is what many on this site hate. That is why I'm surprised he is so popular here.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by spiderarms

Wensink's primary role with the Bruins was to be their designated fighter but O'Reilly was fighting the other teams heavy's even though he was a key hockey player for the team. Wensink reputation went a long way with his fight with Behn Wilson and Battleship Kelly. Aside from that, his fight card was lacking losing to guys he shouldn't have and he did not fare very well when he had his opportunities (Hoyda, Nystrom etc.) Wensink was a clutch and grabber, which is what many on this site hate. That is why I'm surprised he is so popular here.

Clutch and grabber?? The fights with Hoyda and Nystrom were open style fights. His fights with Wilson and Battleship were both open fights. Sure he did some wrasslin' but they all did. wensink also slugged it out against larry playfair and had a donneybrook with minor league legend Bennett Wolf.

i think what endeared him to people was his craziness. he would pull hair and of course the infamous challenge to the entire minnesota bench. not to mention that as a "designated" fighter, he also could play the game as well. He scored 28 goals in 78-79.

He is like other 70's fighters that get overrated here. he didn't have huge fight totals and he didn't have a slew of H/L reel fights. To be perfectly honest, wensink and fotiu are both very comparable in terms of how active/inactive they were in there fights and how they could win a big fight, but lose to questionable opposition. I think many were wary of wensink-like many state about fotiu. you can't have it both ways. wensink was also part of a fearsome foursome in boston handling the dirty work while fotiu was by himslef (at least in his first stint, he got help in his second stint). this may be one reason why he didn't have o'reilly-like fight totals. he was also as intimidating as they came in those days with his wild afro hair style and his penchant for dirty tactics (ie biting, hairpulling). a number of 70's fighters also seemed to miss each other when it came to fighting-don't get me started on fotiu's fight card which is lacking many a great HW's from that era.

i agree that Fotiu would have been great under Cherry in BOS. fotiu wouldn't have to worry about handling the heavy lifting all the time. imagine a fotiu in the black and gold? scoring a goal, making a sweet pass and then squaring off with a tough guy? would have been awesome over here.

[Johnny Pie]

First off a little about Cashman his reputation as a fighter was earned late 60's early 70's. He was impressive vs Ted Harris ,Fleming, Ricky Ley twice, Noel Picard,Magnuson,Harper etc. When he lost to Schoenfeld in 72 it was a big deal because he was rated very high at the time. He already was a stick man proved by the incident in 72 on National tv with D.Hextall. He used to put his stick in many faces for intimidation . I know the guys commenting on Cashman didn't see him back then but should be able to remember when he put the stick in Schultz's face in the 74 finals. That was Cashman. All the other stuff is same old B.S. How many times do we have to hear about one player being scared of the other with THE LINSEMAN AND REFS IN BETWEEN.
Come on, players are seperated all the time after one drops the gloves before they get the chance to go. They scream at each other but then sometime later they actually FIGHT. This never happened with Fotiu. Are you telling me he was spoiling for a fight vs Oreilly, Wensink ,Cashman, Schultz etc and there never was another opportunity to get them to go. They were scared forever. B.S. He put on his little act over and over but never did you see him CHALLENGE WHEN THERE WAS NO REFS AROUND. I told you I have a clip of Carlson of Montreal [the one who pounded Holmgren] Dropping his gloves right in front of Oreilly with no one in between them. Oreilly didn't fight him . What does it prove ? Again the big historian talks about the article I JUST POSTED from Schultz. What did it prove ? It showed the guy didn't know what he was talking about with the Schultz- Rolfe fight. And it showed what Nicky says means NOTHING because he never actually did what he said he could do. I could score, I could hit , I could skate with the best of them,I scared teams with my big arms. Sounds like A PLAYER WHO WOULD HAVE ACCOMPLISHED A LOT. Put it to sleep. Like I said and some seem to agree Wensink and Fotiu are very similar,in rep,in actual fights and fight cards. Wensink scored more points in more than 200 less games so he has to be given the nod there. But neither was Oreilly, not even close.

[Mox MOx]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

Always thought Cashman exhibited all the signs of a madman that couldn't fight

This is funny, because I actually remember reading an article written by Stan Fischler in a Hockey Digest from the late 70's where he made a list of the ten best hockey fighters of all time and Cashman was included on the list. That list also had names like Nels Stewart and Muzz Patrick on it.

However, by all accounts Cashman was among the best fighters in the league in the pre Broad Street Bullies era. He also beat up the Blues Noel Picard at a time when Noel was maybe the most feared player in the league.

[acdcrocksno1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Pie

First off a little about Cashman his reputation as a fighter was earned late 60's early 70's. He was impressive vs Ted Harris ,Fleming, Ricky Ley twice, Noel Picard,Magnuson,Harper etc. When he lost to Schoenfeld in 72 it was a big deal because he was rated very high at the time. He already was a stick man proved by the incident in 72 on National tv with D.Hextall. He used to put his stick in many faces for intimidation . I know the guys commenting on Cashman didn't see him back then but should be able to remember when he put the stick in Schultz's face in the 74 finals. That was Cashman. All the other stuff is same old B.S. How many times do we have to hear about one player being scared of the other with THE LINSEMAN AND REFS IN BETWEEN.
Come on, players are seperated all the time after one drops the gloves before they get the chance to go. They scream at each other but then sometime later they actually FIGHT. This never happened with Fotiu. Are you telling me he was spoiling for a fight vs Oreilly, Wensink ,Cashman, Schultz etc and there never was another opportunity to get them to go. They were scared forever. B.S. He put on his little act over and over but never did you see him CHALLENGE WHEN THERE WAS NO REFS AROUND. I told you I have a clip of Carlson of Montreal [the one who pounded Holmgren] Dropping his gloves right in front of Oreilly with no one in between them. Oreilly didn't fight him . What does it prove ? Again the big historian talks about the article I JUST POSTED from Schultz. What did it prove ? It showed the guy didn't know what he was talking about with the Schultz- Rolfe fight. And it showed what Nicky says means NOTHING because he never actually did what he said he could do. I could score, I could hit , I could skate with the best of them,I scared teams with my big arms. Sounds like A PLAYER WHO WOULD HAVE ACCOMPLISHED A LOT. Put it to sleep. Like I said and some seem to agree Wensink and Fotiu are very similar,in rep,in actual fights and fight cards. Wensink scored more points in more than 200 less games so he has to be given the nod there. But neither was Oreilly, not even close.

Gagne and Lucic once had their gloves off with a linesman in between them I bet Lucic was so scared of him too

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by I like Boobs

Using Jim Cunningham as any kind of measuring stick isn't really valid. The guy was a tomato can that never did much... At 5'10, 185 lbs he wasn't very big either although solid. In fact Fotiu used some pretty dubious methods in the first two Cunningham fights. He nails Cunninghan with a vicious cross check out of nowhere and than tosses the gloves and starts throwing. Cunningham has no idea it's coming and never had time to drop his stick.

Jim Cunningham vs Nick Fotiu - YouTube

In round two the Fight seemed like a draw to me, and again Fotiu is cheap. Watch the two headbutts he sneaks in... I'd argue the broken nose was the result of the two head butts that Fotiu threw in that fight.

Nick Fotiu vs Jim Cunningham 9/26/78 - YouTube

So two of those "wins" over Cunningham are severely tainted. I don't have video of the third fight.

Is there video of the pre season fight between Fotiu and Holmgren? I saw the beating Fotiu gives Holmgren where he basically TKOs him... But this was the only other Fotiu/Holmgren footage I could find. It's not a Fotiu win, but it's not pre season either. Any idea what date it took place for the pre-season fight?

Nick Fotiu vs. Paul Holmgren 2 - YouTube

The preseason fight was in 1976 I think and because of it, the Flyers installed a steel door seperating the rooms. John Ferguson said you could see the sparks coming off the skates on the concrete floor as they continued the fight in the runway!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by pesadillamal

This is in Boston. Just saw that Cashman and Fotiu were having words while each had a linesman on them and Cashman put both hands at the end of his stick like he was going to hit Fotiu with an axe swing in the head.

What's up with this Schmautz guy? Was he tough?

Why would he ask when I wrote it happened in Boston? I love how these guys always act like nothing happened and I made it up and then later we find out I was 100% right!
Schmautz wanted no part of Nick and Cashman had his stick up at Fotiu also and didn't want to fight!
That is a fact as I reported it and wrote it happened in Boston Garden!
No different from the O'Reilly incidents!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

Always thought Cashman exhibited all the signs of a madman that couldn't fight - He was dirty with that stick no doubt - Espo tells the story of Cashman throwing the TV out the 7th story window of a hotel - he reminded me also of a guy that could go postal at anytime and committ mass murder with a weapon - not his fists

His fight with Big Kurt was him ganging up on Kurt with the linesman holding Kurtenbach's arms and once Kurt was able to get a hand free from the linesman and other players gathering around was able to land some rights over the top!
It wasn't a clean one on one open ice fight as it sounds but a typical Bruins fight prior to the 3rd man in rule that was put in because of them in 1971. Prior to 1971/72, the Bruins were famous for ganging up on a guy or one guy holding another guy and a guy like McKenzie suddenly feeling brave and jumping into the fray!
They were not good fighters one on one but were great fighters three on one!

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by bigjack

Why would he ask when I wrote it happened in Boston? I love how these guys always act like nothing happened and I made it up and then later we find out I was 100% right!
Schmautz wanted no part of Nick and Cashman had his stick up at Fotiu also and didn't want to fight!
That is a fact as I reported it and wrote it happened in Boston Garden!
No different from the O'Reilly incidents!

yeah we might be talking about seperate incidents. the article by fischler stated a game at MSG. Interesting that the Bruins could go into MSG and push them around like that considering the stories we hear about how much fear Fotiu struck into the hearts and minds of his opponents. Funny how we haven't seen articles like that in the past. everythig that is posted is usually supporting the reputation Fotiu had. I guess I got one by the censor.

the incident you're referring to is on tape and is really just a minor scrum with fotiu trying to get at cashman but there is too much interference first by McEwen and then the linesmen. schmautz did indeed hold his stick up to fotiu's face with a linesmen in between them but cashman didn't back down one inch from Fotiu. This is obviously an exagerration on your part as pesa stated he didn't see anything wrong with what Cashman did.

Of course i say this with all do respect and courtesy and all that other happy horse sh!t.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by bigjack

They were not good fighters one on one but were great fighters three on one!

Yes, the Bruins did like to gang up on teams and jump in with a third man. all for one and one for all kind of pack mentality. the thing is, cashman WAS indeed a great fighter even then without the help of his teammates. It's easy to see who the jumpers and muggers were and who the great fighters were. Pie mckenzie-not a good fighter and loved to jump guys and sucker punch people. cashman could kick your a55 straight up, carve your eye out or mugg you. He was a mean SOB-but a great fighter, especially earlier in his career. the great poster Johnnie Pie could possibly chime in about the Bruins and cashman in those days with much more authority on the matter.

[pesadillamal]

Just awesome stuff here guys. I could understand why some get a little pissed with Fotiu at times because he is put on a pedestal but when the conversation turns to what really did happen there are always great posts. I also appreciated the posts from srhem and boobs talking about Schmautz which definitely helped put what I was watching into perspective.

It was clear when I was watching the clip that srhem and jack were talking about two different incidents. O'Reily was not involved in the one clip. What was great to me was that this particular incident was very close to what jack was describing. I doubt he has seen this incident since it happened but he was very accurate. Where the opinion and conjecture come in is where we say why didn't the Bruins want to drop their gloves or sticks. I never got the feeling Cashman was afraid to fight Fotiu, but I did get the feeling he didn't want to fight Fotiu. Schmautz on the other hand wanted no part of a scrap in my mind. Scrappy Doo, I mean Fotiu, has indeed had incidents like this in the past so I get blaming him. It just didn't look like that to me. His stick was gone early and his gloves were the only pair on the ice.

Spider had a great post about Fotiu as a whole and the one thing that should not be forgotten is his record against the infamous Broad Street Bullies. I have him at 7-1-0 and while some would say he didn't fight their best, he was never taken to task for anything. There could be debates about whether Wilson was ducking Fotiu after their fight but I have never heard anything from the other side about Fotiu ducking anybody on the Flyers. He did a great job for being alone on an island but he gets the small straw because he was overhyped. I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if he wasn't a Ranger. I remember throwing checks around the house and calling them Fotiu or Beck checks, But I can't remember what I was seeing that early in life.

[Johnny Pie]

Again srehm I posted long ago here and on other sites what made the Bruins tough in those days. They used the rules of the game back then. Thats why these guys who post without actually having seen how the game was played don't understand. What made the Bruins the Baddest team on ice was that one guys fight could become everyones fight. There was one on one scraps and Cashman was very good at it. Cashman vs Ricky Ley on National TV,the Picard fight when Noel was thought to be top notch at the time are a few.But the difference was that no team had the attitude the bruins had. They had some good fighters around in those days but the Bruins were willing to brawl more than the others. The rules allowed it they did it. These guys talk like they know. With statements like they couldn't fight one on one. NO they didn't have to. But Awrey, Green,Orr, Sanderson, Hodge, Mckenzie could fight. Thats why teams didn't want to get in all out brawls with them. They had more guys who would and could fight.