John Wensink vs Nick Fotiu

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by srehm1

To settle things down a bit...
Here is a good read from sports illustrated about Cashman.



Not bad and proof that a tiger can change his stripes with added responsibility!

A good read indeed! I loved this;

According to Schultz, Cashman once told him during the heat of a game that he would "cut my eyes out,"

That is why I brought up the point of the clip we were talking about where Cashman switches his bottom hand on his stick up to the top like he is going to take a two handed axe swing as he and Fotiu were having words. I was just imagining what Cashman said right there and I know it was something along the lines of the quote above. Too funny.

After reading the article it is probably worth repeating that I never had a thought that Cashman was afraid of Fotiu there. I don't think he really wanted to fight him but there could be a bunch of reasons for that. I love everything I have seen from Cashman when it comes down to it.

[flyersvikes]

Great read srehm1, this line here caught my attention:

"Cashman has exhibited almost perfect control this season, engaging in only one fight. "Who'd ever have thought they'd see the day when Cashman would turn the other cheek?" says one NHL coach. High-sticked by L.A.'s Hutchison Thursday night, Cashman refused Hutchison's offer to engage in immediate fisticuffs, thus giving Boston a man advantage. "A couple of years ago," Cashman says, "I never could have kept myself from going after the guy.""

I must have seen players of Cashman's stature turn down fights more than I can count and really can't remember any specific incidents off the top of my head so I do admire some of you guys terrific memories. I also liked in the article how Cashman gave a backhand compliment to the Flyers who I always considered (especially mid 70's to late 80's) to be mirror images of each other.

[bigtufflarry]

Battleship, I saw every MTL-BOS game, back in the day, and it was CASHMAN who stayed away from BIG Tough Larry Robinson ! The few times that Larry wanted to go with the B's captain, Cash would ALWAYS raise that stick and swipe it at Robinson's eyes O___O so as to avoid a beating. Remember what Pierre Bouchard did to Cashman, early in the 1975-76 season, at the Montreal Forum during a bench-clearer, ??

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by bigtufflarry

Battleship, I saw every MTL-BOS game, back in the day, and it was CASHMAN who stayed away from BIG Tough Larry Robinson ! The few times that Larry wanted to go with the B's captain, Cash would ALWAYS raise that stick and swipe it at Robinson's eyes O___O so as to avoid a beating. Remember what Pierre Bouchard did to Cashman, early in the 1975-76 season, at the Montreal Forum during a bench-clearer, ??

Great post and he also wouldn't drop his stick with Nick!

[bigtufflarry]

I saw that game you all are talking about, Big Jack, and NONE of the Bruins that night dropped their sticks with Nicky, 8D

[wired172000]

I'm late to the party, but after reading through the thread thought I'd make a couple of points.

It is worth noting that being an enforcer takes a lot out of a guy, and that Wensink and Fotiu both probably did their best fighting before even reaching the NHL. By the time Wensink made the Bruins, he'd already been fighting his way through the minors since the early 70s...and was not nearly as fresh as he'd once been...hands get beaten up, muscles, joints get cranky...it cannot be easy to slug it out year after year.

O'Reilly was only two years older than Wensink, yet made the Bruins by the early 70s. If you watch his O'Reilly's) early fights, he throws punches like a jackhammer. By 1980, injuries began to catch up with him, and while he was still a very good fighter, he didn't have quite the same intensity. By 1977, when he made the NHL for good, Wensink may have already slowed down a bit....I have no video evidence for this, but he had a rep as a great fighter in the minors, as well as for being a wild man. It stands to reason that years of punching people takes its toll. Could be the same for Fotiu, judging from his rep from his WHA days.

Wensink didn't fight as much in the NHL as he did in the minors, nor as much as a few of his teammates. Yet stories of his minor league fights, as well as his insanity, created a mythological figure.

As for Cashman, his fighting really has to be separated into two stages....before his back injury in 1975 and after. He never skated as well after injuring his back, and his fighting was compromised pretty severely. He played the rest of his career in pain, and while he still fought well at times, he was nothing like the Cash of the old days. While he lost to Schultz in '74, I don't think he had an entirely fair shot....Dave kind of grabbed him and threw the first punch. Toward the end of the fight, it looked like he might get his left free, but they tumbled into the net and the fight was broken up. He played a great series though, he and Orr really carried a very lethargic Bruins team. He also beat Jim Watson and Van Impe in the same series, though neither were particularly good fighters.

Most of Cashman's post 1975 fights were anticlimactic, the Kelly fight being a prime example. He had his moments, such as against Howatt, but for the most part his best days as a fighter were long gone.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by bigtufflarry

I saw that game you all are talking about, Big Jack, and NONE of the Bruins that night dropped their sticks with Nicky, 8D

Sorry Larry that I just saw this but thanks as always!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by JAVALITE

I think Fotiu beats Wensink, due to his handspeed and strength. I did see a brief clip of the Baron-Fotiu-O'Reilly incident, so maybe O'Reilly was wary of Fotiu.

I always thought Jonathan was the toughest of the 1970's Bruins. He would have been a handful for Fotiu. Jonathan was incredibly strong, had good power, and could throw them with both hands.

As far as all the Fotiu shadow boxing is concerned, I figure it was his opponents that didn't want to engage. With his boxing background, a squareoff was always advantage Fotiu. With Nick, it was best to wrestle, get in tight, and try to negate his handspeed. Fotiu always preferred the squareoff, it gave him a huge advantage.

Hey finally someone posted that the Marco Baron clip does exist and O'Reilly didn't exactly distinguish himself!

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by Schultz

The article written about the O'Reily-Fotiu incident was from a BOSTON PAPER, not a NY paper. Ask Mark Topez about it. He was at the game and witnessed it. He said O'Reilly wanted no part of Fotiu. By the way Topez is an Islanders fan so please don't say he's a homer.

Hey what is this, I am proven right once again!

[FitzG]

Wensink played with bad back problems throughout his career. Cherry's book "Grapes" gives a good accounting of the damage Wensink did in the minors.

Originally Posted by wired172000

I'm late to the party, but after reading through the thread thought I'd make a couple of points.

It is worth noting that being an enforcer takes a lot out of a guy, and that Wensink and Fotiu both probably did their best fighting before even reaching the NHL. By the time Wensink made the Bruins, he'd already been fighting his way through the minors since the early 70s...and was not nearly as fresh as he'd once been...hands get beaten up, muscles, joints get cranky...it cannot be easy to slug it out year after year.

O'Reilly was only two years older than Wensink, yet made the Bruins by the early 70s. If you watch his O'Reilly's) early fights, he throws punches like a jackhammer. By 1980, injuries began to catch up with him, and while he was still a very good fighter, he didn't have quite the same intensity. By 1977, when he made the NHL for good, Wensink may have already slowed down a bit....I have no video evidence for this, but he had a rep as a great fighter in the minors, as well as for being a wild man. It stands to reason that years of punching people takes its toll. Could be the same for Fotiu, judging from his rep from his WHA days.

Wensink didn't fight as much in the NHL as he did in the minors, nor as much as a few of his teammates. Yet stories of his minor league fights, as well as his insanity, created a mythological figure.

As for Cashman, his fighting really has to be separated into two stages....before his back injury in 1975 and after. He never skated as well after injuring his back, and his fighting was compromised pretty severely. He played the rest of his career in pain, and while he still fought well at times, he was nothing like the Cash of the old days. While he lost to Schultz in '74, I don't think he had an entirely fair shot....Dave kind of grabbed him and threw the first punch. Toward the end of the fight, it looked like he might get his left free, but they tumbled into the net and the fight was broken up. He played a great series though, he and Orr really carried a very lethargic Bruins team. He also beat Jim Watson and Van Impe in the same series, though neither were particularly good fighters.

Most of Cashman's post 1975 fights were anticlimactic, the Kelly fight being a prime example. He had his moments, such as against Howatt, but for the most part his best days as a fighter were long gone.

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by FitzG

Wensink played with bad back problems throughout his career. Cherry's book "Grapes" gives a good accounting of the damage Wensink did in the minors.

Thankfully his back didn't stop his great carpentry skills and using his hands. Wensink showed that when given an opportunity to play a regular shift and having his confidence could play the game like a Hound Kelly did in Washington or Battleship Kelly did in Pittsburgh!
I always said that if Fotiu played in Boston for Don Cherry, he would of been a 20 goal 200+ penalty minute guy and on the forecheck in small Boston Garden would of been murder!
Cherry tried to get Fotiu but the Rangers never did deal him there! Later with Ferguson gone, Shero left him unprotected and went with Beaton and Hospodar!
What a blunder that was!
With Fotiu on the bench in the playoffs, the Rangers always dominated the Flyers and we saw no getting pushed around!
They were 10-2 in 12 playoff games over 3 series and outscored the Flyers 65-32!
It was a total domination of the Flyers in the playoffs!
In 1980 without Fotiu and with Markham and Hospodar, the Rangers were belted around and sucked losing in 5 games!
Give Wensink high marks, he scored 44 goals in two seasons under Grapes Cherry! I saw alot of him as a NJ Devil and he was used as a goon! He played around 4 minutes a night and you could see his confidence was gone!
Even at the elite level confidence means alot! Look at Jason Bay with the Mets and dealing with the NY pressures!
Some guys either can't handle the pressure or aren't given an opportunity to play and have their confidence grow!
The mind is a powerful tool!

[srehm1]

Im not going to get into a huge debate or argument over this but the Patriot Ledger is NOT a Boston Newspaper. It is a south shore, MA newspaper and is printed in Quincy, MA. This was not the boston beat writers praising fotiu by glorifying another almost/non fight. this was a writer for the patriot ledger who was a big fan of fotiu during his days with Cape Cod and the NE Whalers. Thanks.

[Schultz]

What's the difference, it's still a newspaper that's NOT from NY. Bigjack we can't win. If It was a NY paper that this article came from then the writer would be accused of being a homer. The Patriot Ledger was and still is a Quincy paper that covers Boston, not NY, sports.

[McIn-poschek]

Originally Posted by Schultz

What's the difference, it's still a newspaper that's NOT from NY. Bigjack we can't win. If It was a NY paper that this article came from then the writer would be accused of being a homer. The Patriot Ledger was and still is a Quincy paper that covers Boston, not NY, sports.

I think back in those days guys did not fight as much because they all or 95% of them were more complete players, meaning that they fought last and played hockey first - they had a reall love affair with the game as they were all reall blue collar type guys with I think it is fair to say more respect for the overall game rather than this infantile approach where there are designated, puffed up, goons/brainless wonders on skates - Fotiu would have been fine in any era - not only was he a great respected fighter but his ferocious open ice checking made him a real "terror" - forget about the ole one-two - this guy could and did put people into next week with his full-speed hitting/boarding - downright frightening

[pesadillamal]

Originally Posted by Schultz

What's the difference, it's still a newspaper that's NOT from NY. Bigjack we can't win. If It was a NY paper that this article came from then the writer would be accused of being a homer. The Patriot Ledger was and still is a Quincy paper that covers Boston, not NY, sports.

No, you can't win Schultz. You mentioned Fotiu challenging Wilson and there is a clip where everybody could see Fotiu making his way from the middle of a scrum to get in Wilson's face only to have Wilson back into the boards and look away until the linesman is in between them.That is just met with comments like "this isn't a staring contest" and shrugged off but if it was Fotiu backing up and ignoring Wilson it would be a big deal. Cashman won't drop his lumber even after Nicky did and it is Nicky who is posturing behind linesman.

We all wish Fotiu was more aggressive and would have just dropped his gloves and started throwing punches at certain times but he didn't and I could see that costing him when it comes to ranking fighters. The truth seems to be that people did indeed duck him for whatever reason and the more I see the more I trust Jack's stories over the haters misconceptions, though I can't buy the one punching of O'Reily unless I see it.

I thank posters like you, Flyer Frank, BS25, and others who refuse to let the fact that Fotiu has been over-hyped cloud their judgement or feelings about him. It helps someone like me that saw Fotiu play but was too young to really remember or realize what was going on paint a clearer picture. Same with someone like Johnny Pie that knows a lot also but feels differently.