He got him when he was old - He got him when he was a rookie Bunk!

[nighthawk]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

Simon's middle years were simply him obeying management (especially when they found dout that he had skills) he was found extremely valuable and asked to keep it real and stay out of the box.

Well then let's salute the "REBELS" of yesterday like :

Neely
Plett
Tocchet
Clark
Fraser
Wilson
Holmgren
Nystrom
Secord
O'Reilly
Bridgman
Jonathan
Williams
Wensink
Nilan

Who all had playing skills yet still found time to fight their WHOLE career.

[Mr. Pink]

+Probert

[Rugged]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

Simon's middle years were simply him obeying management (especially when they found dout that he had skills) he was found extremely valuable and asked to keep it real and stay out of the box.

I think you have it backwards. "Keeping it real" would have meant Simon had a V.I.P. seat in the penalty box.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by nighthawk

Well then let's salute the "REBELS" of yesterday like :

Neely
Plett
Tocchet
Clark
Fraser
Wilson
Holmgren
Nystrom
Secord
O'Reilly
Bridgman
Jonathan
Williams
Wensink
Nilan

Who all had playing skills yet still found time to fight their WHOLE career.

Nice Job - Agree

[Two-Four]

My two cents; You have to factor in past primes or before primes. It's only fair. Like Shrehm said, it just puts the fight into more perspective. Anyone who has fallowed Probert's career can plainly see that Probert from rookie year to 94'(Red Wings) was a far different fighter from 95 to retirement.(Blackhawks)
He was clearly not fighting at the same level. Still because of how tough he was, he was still a threat to beat anyone until his last season or two. But you could watch some of his fights on the Blackhawks and clearly see he didn't have the same tools any more.

Again, I feel that should be factored in. It just gives a better understanding of the fight and the fighters. Plus, with anyone past their primes, some slow down do to injuries, they become less able to take punches(after taking so many for so long) their energy levels drop, they don't get that same adrenaline rush from when they were younger. I still believe credit should be given to the winner. Just that some fighters who are obviously past their prime should be noted.

I also think the inexperienced young fighter should be noted as well. The NHL is a whole different level and some fighters take a little bit to find their groove. That's only natural. Look at Eric Cairns. When he first came up with the Rangers he couldn't take a punch very well, had horrible balance, and just wasn't that great. But a couple years later he worked on his balance, defense, his neck(to take punches better) and on the islanders pretty much every year he was top 3 in the league. Probably even the champ one year.

So as I say I think pre-primes and post-primes should be noted. Not even as an excuse but to put wins and losses both in to perspective.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

If there is anything that distinguishes abilities young/old it has to be, passion

There are no dimunition of skills or abilities, if anything as an aged fighter you relax more and let the young gun go crazy as you counter punch with amazing cunning

[brad houghton]

Originally Posted by battleship25

To me some fighters peak later than others..... I've mentioned before that Rob Ray, Lyndon Byers, Twist and to a lesser extent Probert and Nystrom needed a few yrs to peak ...actually most fighters fit this bill. B.Wilson was a rare breed that although he peaked in 81 he was a very skilled as a rookie. But in that rookie yr notice how he was learning the technical aspects that only the " Big league Boys" can show you, for instance he was tied up quickly vs Fotiu and Schultz and seemed a tad unsure of himself in some of the early career fights. Later he seemed more poised and confident , this happens to all of these guys. Just a tad mind you. Most others have a broader learning curve .... Chris Simon was another and Troy Crowder came out and dominated. Dave Brown too. But most need to bulk up and bone up to meet the demends of the NHL fighter. My buddy back home was talking to Warren Rychel and he told him about the difference between the"juniors" fighters and the NHL fighters. The subtle defensive techniques that the experienced guys knew and how the strength difference was shocking. While guys like Brown Battleship Kelly didn't go straight to the NHL they gained valuable experience when meeting up with seasoned pros who were now back in the minors leagues.
As far as the over the hill question ...that differs too I think...while Nystrom really never was on a slide when he retired the same can't be said of Gillies, Larry Robinson, Cochrane, J.Bob Kelly, Plett , etc. Schoenfeld was another who was a fury and a top fighter in the mid 70's but later was a shell of his former self. Interesting thread BBBB well done. And Wilson was a helpless rookie of 17 yrs of age I think when that bully Fotiu edged him ...but I wouldn't argue with someone that thought it was a draw

very nice post and i would like to add my 2 cents worth

first off let me also say this is very individual and there is no one size fits all but i have some random thoughts

lets use Boxing for a second......when hot prospects break into the pro ranks they are usually managed for a while.....they start off with opponents that are of lesser skill and they build up to top competition over a few years usually.....i know boxing is very technical but so is hockey fighting....i think it shows that there is a growth process for fighters

also as BS25 points out if guys spend time in the AHL i think they can hit the ground running in the NHL....a guy like McGrattan is a good expample....in his three years in Binghamton he had 86 fights as a pro...peaking at 39 fights the year before he broke the Sens line up....so in a case like McGrats or Battleship Kelly they did their developing in the minors and were fully ready for prime time by the time they turned pro....i think this is hockey's answer to managing fighter and getting them ready for the big leagues

other young fighters have to learn on the job in the NHL and that can be tough sledding.....i don't think there are many examples of guys who took the league by storm as 19 year olds....there are some cool stories (Wendel) but most guys aren't ready for fighting in the NHL right out of juniors

also in Boxing you can see huge drop offs as fighters age.....was Ali the same against Holmes when he was in his late 30's as he was when he fought Liston???? not close.....how did Tyson age.....Sugar Ray.......Duran......these guys all had fight left in them but the aging process and cumulative punch counts watered them all down as time rolled on

when it comes to aging in Hockey fighters i think we have to look at how many fights guys had as this can accelerate the deterioraton process (mentally and physically)......when you see someone like Probert approach 300 fights it has to take its toll especially with how he fought....and as some guys get old i just don't think they want to pay the price as much anymore

i tend to look at each guy case by case.....if it appears they are getting older and there is fall off i factor it in......if they started out very poorly as a rookie and but matured nicely i factor it in

we can find cases where aging and experience is a factor and examples where it might not have been as impactful but to say its bunk i think is a bit to general IMHO

[battleship25]

Originally Posted by brad houghton

very nice post and i would like to add my 2 cents worth

first off let me also say this is very individual and there is no one size fits all but i have some random thoughts

lets use Boxing for a second......when hot prospects break into the pro ranks they are usually managed for a while.....they start off with opponents that are of lesser skill and they build up to top competition over a few years usually.....i know boxing is very technical but so is hockey fighting....i think it shows that there is a growth process for fighters

also as BS25 points out if guys spend time in the AHL i think they can hit the ground running in the NHL....a guy like McGrattan is a good expample....in his three years in Binghamton he had 86 fights as a pro...peaking at 39 fights the year before he broke the Sens line up....so in a case like McGrats or Battleship Kelly they did their developing in the minors and were fully ready for prime time by the time they turned pro....i think this is hockey's answer to managing fighter and getting them ready for the big leagues

other young fighters have to learn on the job in the NHL and that can be tough sledding.....i don't think there are many examples of guys who took the league by storm as 19 year olds....there are some cool stories (Wendel) but most guys aren't ready for fighting in the NHL right out of juniors

also in Boxing you can see huge drop offs as fighters age.....was Ali the same against Holmes when he was in his late 30's as he was when he fought Liston???? not close.....how did Tyson age.....Sugar Ray.......Duran......these guys all had fight left in them but the aging process and cumulative punch counts watered them all down as time rolled on

when it comes to aging in Hockey fighters i think we have to look at how many fights guys had as this can accelerate the deterioraton process (mentally and physically)......when you see someone like Probert approach 300 fights it has to take its toll especially with how he fought....and as some guys get old i just don't think they want to pay the price as much anymore

i tend to look at each guy case by case.....if it appears they are getting older and there is fall off i factor it in......if they started out very poorly as a rookie and but matured nicely i factor it in

we can find cases where aging and experience is a factor and examples where it might not have been as impactful but to say its bunk i think is a bit to general IMHO

Great post Brad, that's what makes Wilson, Clark, Wells, Fraser and Playfair so impressive...they seem to come out of juniors at an extremely high level. That's rare.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by brad houghton

very nice post and i would like to add my 2 cents worth

first off let me also say this is very individual and there is no one size fits all but i have some random thoughts

lets use Boxing for a second......when hot prospects break into the pro ranks they are usually managed for a while.....they start off with opponents that are of lesser skill and they build up to top competition over a few years usually.....i know boxing is very technical but so is hockey fighting....i think it shows that there is a growth process for fighters

also as BS25 points out if guys spend time in the AHL i think they can hit the ground running in the NHL....a guy like McGrattan is a good expample....in his three years in Binghamton he had 86 fights as a pro...peaking at 39 fights the year before he broke the Sens line up....so in a case like McGrats or Battleship Kelly they did their developing in the minors and were fully ready for prime time by the time they turned pro....i think this is hockey's answer to managing fighter and getting them ready for the big leagues

other young fighters have to learn on the job in the NHL and that can be tough sledding.....i don't think there are many examples of guys who took the league by storm as 19 year olds....there are some cool stories (Wendel) but most guys aren't ready for fighting in the NHL right out of juniors

also in Boxing you can see huge drop offs as fighters age.....was Ali the same against Holmes when he was in his late 30's as he was when he fought Liston???? not close.....how did Tyson age.....Sugar Ray.......Duran......these guys all had fight left in them but the aging process and cumulative punch counts watered them all down as time rolled on

when it comes to aging in Hockey fighters i think we have to look at how many fights guys had as this can accelerate the deterioraton process (mentally and physically)......when you see someone like Probert approach 300 fights it has to take its toll especially with how he fought....and as some guys get old i just don't think they want to pay the price as much anymore

i tend to look at each guy case by case.....if it appears they are getting older and there is fall off i factor it in......if they started out very poorly as a rookie and but matured nicely i factor it in

we can find cases where aging and experience is a factor and examples where it might not have been as impactful but to say its bunk i think is a bit to general IMHO

I take your point about Probert and he approaching the 300 fight plateau. However, I would argue that a Probert that was in the gym, working out, watching his bad habits (boozing, drugging, & what have you) might use that plateau as "pure value added" rather than as a detriment. Just a thought. Put it this way if he had McSorely's habits he probably would have not only continued to dominate but lasted a few more years at a very high level. I really think it is one's passion that takes a hit more than anything. Boxing is not a good analogy because these guys are not exerting one tenth the energy over time as a boxer.

[brad houghton]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

I take your point about Probert and he approaching the 300 fight plateau. However, I would argue that a Probert that was in the gym, working out, watching his bad habits (boozing, drugging, & what have you) might use that plateau as "pure value added" rather than as a detriment. Just a thought. Put it this way if he had McSorely's habits he probably would have not only continued to dominate but lasted a few more years at a very high level. I really think it is one's passion that takes a hit more than anything. Boxing is not a good analogy because these guys are not exerting one tenth the energy over time as a boxer.

perhaps point taken on Probert if he lived cleaner and trained would his prime have been extended......maybe....not sure if it was physical with bob or mental maybe Battlship25 or some of the hawks fans that saw him up close could comment on him better than i can but you would think training and clean living would have helped towards the end

i would take some issue hockey fighting not exerting one tenth the energy over time as boxing...on the one hand in boxing you will be getting hit allot more in the head over your career and i am sure that really adds up....probably better getting hit by a glove than a fist though

but i think Hockey fighting can be tougher mentally since a guy like Probert had to be ready to fight 80 to 90 nights a year at the drop of a hat over 20 plus years (lets say 16 to 37)....mentally you had to get ready for a fight all the time and i think that would be more exausting.....Kelly Chase said it well...imagine the feeling you had in your stomache when you had a fight lined up after school that you were waiting for....now imagine its with the toughest guy in the city....now multiply that by 85 days a year

also i wouldn't diminish being in 300 fights over a career.....that is allot of wear and tear....yea the punch count can't compare but remember that not many boxers are bouncing their bare fist off a helmet....there are many injuries hockey fighters have to deal with that can be physically taxing

in some cases you are correct it can be apples and oranges but i think both forms of fighting can wear a guy down mentally and phyically over the years

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by brad houghton

perhaps point taken on Probert if he lived cleaner and trained would his prime have been extended......maybe....not sure if it was physical with bob or mental maybe Battlship25 or some of the hawks fans that saw him up close could comment on him better than i can but you would think training and clean living would have helped towards the end

i would take some issue hockey fighting not exerting one tenth the energy over time as boxing...on the one hand in boxing you will be getting hit allot more in the head over your career and i am sure that really adds up....probably better getting hit by a glove than a fist though

but i think Hockey fighting can be tougher mentally since a guy like Probert had to be ready to fight 80 to 90 nights a year at the drop of a hat over 20 plus years (lets say 16 to 37)....mentally you had to get ready for a fight all the time and i think that would be more exausting.....Kelly Chase said it well...imagine the feeling you had in your stomache when you had a fight lined up after school that you were waiting for....now imagine its with the toughest guy in the city....now multiply that by 85 days a year

also i wouldn't diminish being in 300 fights over a career.....that is allot of wear and tear....yea the punch count can't compare but remember that not many boxers are bouncing their bare fist off a helmet....there are many injuries hockey fighters have to deal with that can be physically taxing

in some cases you are correct it can be apples and oranges but i think both forms of fighting can wear a guy down mentally and phyically over the years

It is apple and oranges IMHO. A hockey fight goes 2 minutes if you are lucky.
I would argue that boxing is much more demanding as one trains for a 10,12,or 15 round fight - 3 mins a round - Look, I just think that a guy like Probert who was like (for lack of a better term) made to do what the did. He was perfect, with all the requisite tools and charachter that make him tops on our lists to this day. Hey, I'll give you this, forget about the gym (Probie probably did not need that) but the booze and drugs, take that out of the equation and I think that he is truly standing alone, and the runner-up way behind him

[brad houghton]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

It is apple and oranges IMHO. A hockey fight goes 2 minutes if you are lucky.
I would argue that boxing is much more demanding as one trains for a 10,12,or 15 round fight - 3 mins a round - Look, I just think that a guy like Probert who was like (for lack of a better term) made to do what the did. He was perfect, with all the requisite tools and charachter that make him tops on our lists to this day. Hey, I'll give you this, forget about the gym (Probie probably did not need that) but the booze and drugs, take that out of the equation and I think that he is truly standing alone, and the runner-up way behind him

yea i agree a boxing fight with the punch count and amount of rounds is away more taxing than a hockey fight that last 60 seconds......i do think clustering your work into two fights a year and knowing who your opponent is would create a more stable mental enviorment

the connection i was trying to draw was that in both sports i feel that people usually don't come out of the blocks ready to take on the best (with exceptions in both sports)......and in both styles of fighting there can be serious decline as the body and will to win diminish

criteria for weighting a fighter is subjective and i do know i will continue to factor in prime years vs non prime years of a fighter

fun debate

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by bigjack

I've never used the old stuff with Fotiu. He got beat but not bad. It was even until the end when Paterson got in a bunch of rabbit punches and won! No bullsh*t from me about age!
I read all the time how people will only reference the motor city Probert and ignore the fact that as a BlackHawk he wasn't nearly as dominate!
It is what it is!
I've defended a Kocur in NY for not fighting as much because of his hands or a Maloney not being as good as a Leaf because of a bad shoulder but it is what it is!
Put it out there and let everyone decide what they like.

Fotiu never needed a waiver because he kicked Link's arse when he was inhis 40s - and for the record the small powers would never grant Fotiu a "pass" for being old, or past his prime

[I like Boobs]

Yet another figment of your imagination. You have this fight on tape right? So you can show everyone how "Fotiu kicked Link's Arse"????

Another day, another falsehood.

Maybe you can get one of your other "personalities" to agree with you.

[BROKEN*ORBITAL]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

You mean this:

YouTube - Chris Simon vs Dave Brown Round 2

A fight where Simon's legs stop working for no apparent reason and he just falls down at the end.

That almost never happened..............