He got him when he was old - He got him when he was a rookie Bunk!

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

As far as these morbid defenses posters make for a fighter that is either too long in the tooth, or, on the flipside, mere rookies are specious, without merit, and totally daft.

To the seasoned fighter: If they spent their whole careers fighting and banging and then some youg buck comes in and beats him, well, he beats him. Plus since men's strength peaks when they are in their 50s there should be no quarter given. Its not as if he has never had a fight before -Oh! that was at the end of his career" Again, No excuses! An example of this would be the whiners that tried to make a case that Simon beat an "old" Brown - How daft!

To the young bucks: Like when Fotiu beat Wilson "Oh! He was just a rookie", bunk! what the heck was he doing in the minors all those years? No excuses and the results are not going to change after a few more years or fights

Plug in your example it does not and should not matter

[srehm1]

It's easy for you to say that because it fits so nicely with your rosey view of Fotiu and Simon. Yes, good job BBBB. This is another good way for you to keep beating to death the same topic.

Yeah I hate how everyone defends the Fotiu-Paterson fight by saying Fotiu was over the hill. Paterson made that old timer look real ordinary. We all know every fighter is the same fighter throughout his whole career. They don't improve or get worse, they stay the same. Every loss should count the same.

I also love how you get real quiet whenever someone brings up Simon's losses later in his career. What happened to Simon against Laraque? Was Simon past his prime? No, that's right, every fighter stays the same. They don't improve or get worse.

Yeah Probert NEVER WOULD HAVE BEATEN KEN BELANGER EVER. He wasn't over the hill when he fought Belanger. Probert was the same fighter throughout his whole career.

Yeah, don't give me that too old or too young crap.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by srehm1

It's easy for you to say that because it fits so nicely with your rosey view of Fotiu and Simon. Yes, good job BBBB. This is another good way for you to keep beating to death the same topic.

Yeah I hate how everyone defends the Fotiu-Paterson fight by saying Fotiu was over the hill. Paterson made that old timer look real ordinary. We all know every fighter is the same fighter throughout his whole career. They don't improve or get worse, they stay the same. Every loss should count the same.

I also love how you get real quiet whenever someone brings up Simon's losses later in his career. What happened to Simon against Laraque? Was Simon past his prime? No, that's right, every fighter stays the same. They don't improve or get worse.

Yeah Probert NEVER WOULD HAVE BEATEN KEN BELANGER EVER. He wasn't over the hill when he fought Belanger. Probert was the same fighter throughout his whole career.

Yeah, don't give me that too old or too young crap.

Hey! I take your point! But this time I can really shout wolf! I did not really mean to make my Simon and Brown or Fotiu or Wilson arguments "again" _ I said plug in your own examples, and yours are fine, no problem.

With my limited field of knowledge to draw from I cite that which is familiar to me. The point being and I think that you agree is this, the - "he was too old then, or, he was just a rookie then" holds no water, no excuses.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by srehm1

It's easy for you to say that because it fits so nicely with your rosey view of Fotiu and Simon. Yes, good job BBBB. This is another good way for you to keep beating to death the same topic.

Yeah I hate how everyone defends the Fotiu-Paterson fight by saying Fotiu was over the hill. Paterson made that old timer look real ordinary. We all know every fighter is the same fighter throughout his whole career. They don't improve or get worse, they stay the same. Every loss should count the same.

I also love how you get real quiet whenever someone brings up Simon's losses later in his career. What happened to Simon against Laraque? Was Simon past his prime? No, that's right, every fighter stays the same. They don't improve or get worse.

Yeah Probert NEVER WOULD HAVE BEATEN KEN BELANGER EVER. He wasn't over the hill when he fought Belanger. Probert was the same fighter throughout his whole career.

Yeah, don't give me that too old or too young crap.

BTW: No excuses for this guy be it 16 years into his career - here he takes on one of the leagues giants not too long ago

YouTube - Parros vs. Simon Fight

[lilburtis9363]

Originally Posted by srehm1

Yeah Probert NEVER WOULD HAVE BEATEN KEN BELANGER EVER. He wasn't over the hill when he fought Belanger. Probert was the same fighter throughout his whole career.

Yeah, don't give me that too old or too young crap.

Glad someone finally said it. He tko'd Parker a few scraps before this one. Then beat Grimson, Cairns, Laraque, Belak, and Brashear the next year.

[nighthawk]

To the seasoned fighter: when Domi had beaten John Kordic pretty badly some of his defenders tried to reason how he was "past his prime". While Kordic's lifestyle was probably starting to take his toll on him at that point, he was hardly over the hill and still had some good fight left in him. No disrespect intended towards Kordic who I'm a fan of but he just got beat, plain and simple.....no excuses.

To the young bucks: probably the most classic example of this is when Kocur got beat by Richter and his loyal Kocurites would argue that JK was just a rookie at the time. While I agree that the loss was a bit overblown it was still a loss and being a rookie really shouldn't give you a pass.

[battleship25]

To me some fighters peak later than others..... I've mentioned before that Rob Ray, Lyndon Byers, Twist and to a lesser extent Probert and Nystrom needed a few yrs to peak ...actually most fighters fit this bill. B.Wilson was a rare breed that although he peaked in 81 he was a very skilled as a rookie. But in that rookie yr notice how he was learning the technical aspects that only the " Big league Boys" can show you, for instance he was tied up quickly vs Fotiu and Schultz and seemed a tad unsure of himself in some of the early career fights. Later he seemed more poised and confident , this happens to all of these guys. Just a tad mind you. Most others have a broader learning curve .... Chris Simon was another and Troy Crowder came out and dominated. Dave Brown too. But most need to bulk up and bone up to meet the demends of the NHL fighter. My buddy back home was talking to Warren Rychel and he told him about the difference between the"juniors" fighters and the NHL fighters. The subtle defensive techniques that the experienced guys knew and how the strength difference was shocking. While guys like Brown Battleship Kelly didn't go straight to the NHL they gained valuable experience when meeting up with seasoned pros who were now back in the minors leagues.
As far as the over the hill question ...that differs too I think...while Nystrom really never was on a slide when he retired the same can't be said of Gillies, Larry Robinson, Cochrane, J.Bob Kelly, Plett , etc. Schoenfeld was another who was a fury and a top fighter in the mid 70's but later was a shell of his former self. Interesting thread BBBB well done. And Wilson was a helpless rookie of 17 yrs of age I think when that bully Fotiu edged him ...but I wouldn't argue with someone that thought it was a draw

[Maggie3and Me]

BBBB,

If you would not mind, would you please post the source for the comment,” Plus since men's strength peaks when they are in their 50s there should be no quarter given.”

As some one who has gone through their 40’s, 50’s, and are in their mid 60’s. I would question the voracity of that statement. Trainers at my health club have mentioned several times that as you get older, your body needs more time to recover between exertion. 48 hours instead of 24, between heavy workouts.

Also, if your statement was true, and the argument you make about hockey fighters and their peak years, wouldn’t that carry over to other sports as well? Pro football players, baseball players, basketball players, would be signing lucrative long term contracts into their late 40’s
Track and field stars would not be hanging it up at mid 30’s.

Granted there are exceptions, but not the rule. Also, I will give you the fact that Olympic weight lifters and shot putters compete into the late 30’s and early 40’s, but not for long. To take it another step, according to your statement, Greco Roman Wrestlers, would all be 45-55. I might have missed that, but I don’t recall any of their names. Maybe you could provide those also.

That is not to say that when you reach 50 you are a weakling. Genetics, diet and exercise, play a part in this also. However, a balanced workout routine followed at least 4-5 times a week will produce amazing results, but a Mr. Universe no.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am just curious to the source of that information.

[Mr. Pink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-oWqlkkHM0

[ewen21]

Brown took a beating there. Very overrated fighter that Brown

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by ewen21

Brown took a beating there. Very overrated fighter that Brown

Yeah, but, afterall, he was at the end of his career and completely forgot everything that got him there

[BENNETTWOLF]

I guess i'll make an excuse for how Lyndon Byers and Tim Hunter looked while playing out the string in San Jose. Both men looked like "shells" of the fighters they had been previously.

Kevin McClelland looked none too dangerous in absorbing a beating from Ewen (was it?) in Detroit.

I can think of a few examples of guys that weren't the same later in their careers and, i personally, tend to focus on their better days and give them a "pass" somewhat. Randy Mckay wasn't nearly as dangerous late in his career compared to his prime.

Brad May dosen't look quite as dangerous as he did when he was young. I'd give more points for beating him in Buffalo than now. Tie Domi is another guy who wasn't anywhere near what he "was" at the end.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

I guess i'll make an excuse for how Lyndon Byers and Tim Hunter looked while playing out the string in San Jose. Both men looked like "shells" of the fighters they had been previously.

Kevin McClelland looked none too dangerous in absorbing a beating from Ewen (was it?) in Detroit.

I can think of a few examples of guys that weren't the same later in their careers and, i personally, tend to focus on their better days and give them a "pass" somewhat. Randy Mckay wasn't nearly as dangerous late in his career compared to his prime.

Brad May dosen't look quite as dangerous as he did when he was young. I'd give more points for beating him in Buffalo than now. Tie Domi is another guy who wasn't anywhere near what he "was" at the end.

It's neither here nor there with respect to fighting it simply means it's time to retire, seriously.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

I guess i'll make an excuse for how Lyndon Byers and Tim Hunter looked while playing out the string in San Jose. Both men looked like "shells" of the fighters they had been previously.

Kevin McClelland looked none too dangerous in absorbing a beating from Ewen (was it?) in Detroit.

I can think of a few examples of guys that weren't the same later in their careers and, i personally, tend to focus on their better days and give them a "pass" somewhat. Randy Mckay wasn't nearly as dangerous late in his career compared to his prime.

Brad May dosen't look quite as dangerous as he did when he was young. I'd give more points for beating him in Buffalo than now. Tie Domi is another guy who wasn't anywhere near what he "was" at the end.

Good call on LB, BW.

I also remember Louie DeBrusk doing a number on a San Jose version of LB. I'd also like to take your point a bit further and point out that LB got sh!t kicked by Paul Maclean, of all people, very early in his career. Now, does Maclean do a demo job on LB in 88 or 89? I don't think so.

Young Byers:

YouTube - Lyndon Byers vs Paul MacLean

Prime Byers:

YouTube - lyndon byers vs glen cochrane tko

Past his prime Byers:

YouTube - Lyndon Byers vs Louie DeBrusk 120192

[bigjack]

Originally Posted by srehm1

It's easy for you to say that because it fits so nicely with your rosey view of Fotiu and Simon. Yes, good job BBBB. This is another good way for you to keep beating to death the same topic.

Yeah I hate how everyone defends the Fotiu-Paterson fight by saying Fotiu was over the hill. Paterson made that old timer look real ordinary. We all know every fighter is the same fighter throughout his whole career. They don't improve or get worse, they stay the same. Every loss should count the same.

I also love how you get real quiet whenever someone brings up Simon's losses later in his career. What happened to Simon against Laraque? Was Simon past his prime? No, that's right, every fighter stays the same. They don't improve or get worse.

Yeah Probert NEVER WOULD HAVE BEATEN KEN BELANGER EVER. He wasn't over the hill when he fought Belanger. Probert was the same fighter throughout his whole career.

Yeah, don't give me that too old or too young crap.

I've never used the old stuff with Fotiu. He got beat but not bad. It was even until the end when Paterson got in a bunch of rabbit punches and won! No bullsh*t from me about age!
I read all the time how people will only reference the motor city Probert and ignore the fact that as a BlackHawk he wasn't nearly as dominate!
It is what it is!
I've defended a Kocur in NY for not fighting as much because of his hands or a Maloney not being as good as a Leaf because of a bad shoulder but it is what it is!
Put it out there and let everyone decide what they like.