"He was also a good player, too."

[srehm1]

Anyone seem to catch this phrase when we break down a fighter's all time worth? Do you put a lot of weight behind this factor when ranking a fighter? If so, why? I know ranking a fighter is not an exact science but I always come across this phrase when we discuss an all timer. Almost like it's a bonus to them. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does this factor in for you when you think of a fighter or try and rank them?

[Rugged]

This topic screams Rick Tocchet and Wendel Clark.

I've always had an affinity for guys who could play the game and use their fists at the same time, hence, I'd rank them higher than some no-talent goons.

[BENNETTWOLF]

I did think of a side angle. Player/fighters have much more chance to make an impact in dramatic post season fights. I personally try to rate fighters as fighters but it does factor in a bit. Mcsorley for one, logged so much time but epitomized "enforcer".

A lot of these guys didn't choose the circumstances of their fights; i.e. not "fresh" off a face off. It has to factor in somewhat as does the value of their fights to the team. Their skill counts for something, if only, in the makeup of the team.

Most classic 4th liners like Berube, ray or many others were respected leaders and are integral to a team's fabric or chemistry.

Mostly, i try to judge guys on their record with some asteriks. Some fights carry more weight than others but i think that's true in scoring any fight for a lot of us. Millions of "circumstances" have been brought up but i think we generally evaluate fighters as fighters.

[bruiser11]

That's why fighting stays because there is always going to be guys who are good players as well! My favorite Brendan Shanahan.

[BrianTheAdsFan]

Nice thread Shrem.


Haiving a fighter that is a player?

Bonus everytime!

This resounds not only through the 'old school' stuff, but right into today.

Especially today...

[srehm1]

For me, playing ability and fighting ability are two different things. When I watch a great fight, whether it's from today or yesteryear, I don't wait until it's over to see who had the harder slapshot to decide who the winner is. I feel the same way when I rank them. I'm not concerned with Grimson's wrist shot or if he passed well. I'm only interested in the fights. i don't care what led to the fight or the build up to it. Once the gloves are dropped nothing else really matters.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guys who could play AND fight, but I'm not handing out any bonuses because of it.

[blockerpunch]

I guess it is like a feather in the cap of those guys if they could play the game and could fight too. I think it says a lot about a player if they are an important part of the team as a player-first type but are still willing to drop the gloves and stick up for their teammates when it isn't in their job description. Being ranked all time it more or less puts them in the "what if they were strictly an enforcer category" as they are hard to rank, yet if they have enough volume and have faced enough top tier opponents then they may make the grade based on ability.

So many factors involved really, "appointment fight" enforcers have to worry about fighting, but player first types log a ton more ice and aren't as 'fresh' yet can often choose when they want to fight --- they all cancel each other out in the end.

[Playfair 27]

Bobby Nystrom anyone ?

As a specific

[Playfair 27]

Oops, hit the wrong button...

As a specific criteria, I don't think it matters when judging how great a fighter is, per se; however, it is VERY impressive when the best fighters played a regular shift AND managed to have plenty of fights- if only from a stamina aspect, as Blocker & others noted.

Guys like Probert, Wilson, Playfair, Clark, Tocchet & Gillies etc. played regular shifts and weren't warming the bench waiting to take on the opposing enforcer or clean up some on ice business..

Contrast that with a Brown, Twist, Hoyda etc. and it is definitely food for thought to consider how maybe the straight " goon " type wouldn't have been nearly as effective had he gotten much more ice time.

Once again, props and love to one of my all- time faves : Bobby Nystrom, who not only played on the top line but fought everyone like their fight would be his last- and he smoked like a fiend too...

Incredible

[Trognitz]

Originally Posted by Playfair 27

Bobby Nystrom anyone ?

As a specific

Mel Bridgman. John Wensink. For that matter, Schultz scored 20 goals one year. You couldn't be a total goon and score twenty goals in a year in those days.

Or even now.

[2,5,10GameMatch]

John Kordic could have been a solid 2nd liner, I saw him score two goals vs Vancouver on only 6 shifts in the game and he arrived at the rink an hour before, halting a 3 day coke bender with a hooker in a Toronto Hotel room!

'When a crusher thinks he's an rusher, he soon becomes an usher.'

[Shoryuken]

Originally Posted by 2,5,10GameMatch

John Kordic could have been a solid 2nd liner, I saw him score two goals vs Vancouver on only 6 shifts in the game and he arrived at the rink an hour before, halting a 3 day coke bender with a hooker in a Toronto Hotel room!

Was a solid blueliner in his WHL days as well, by all accounts.

[2,5,10GameMatch]

Originally Posted by Shoryuken

Was a solid blueliner in his WHL days as well, by all accounts.

And a solid Soccer goalie as a youth who could have gone ]>ro!! Natural athlete was John Kordic, rarely had ice time, never had many chances to show he could ]>lay in the NHL but when he was focused? he showed me skills that most "fighters" dont have....I have never seen a guy more solid on his skates either, guys use to bounce off him, he had incredible balance.

[OLLBLUEEYZ]

Al Secord
Wayne Cashman
Larry Robinson
Right away came to mind.

[steve1480]

Marty McSorley
Cam Neely