Brian McGrattan vs Joe Kocur?

[demodogpack]

Didn't Herb Raglan TKO Kocur.

[Blues 34]

Originally Posted by demodogpack

Didn't Herb Raglan TKO Kocur.

Yes Raglan did TKO Kocur but I think that was more of a case of every dog has their day for Raglan who did have some pop if he caught you flush just look at his KO of Joe Reekie.

I hate these hypothetical matchups because they are just that hypothetical.

Would McGrattan have a chance vs Kocur sure he would have a chance vs anyone he is a big tough kid.

Kocur played in a much tougher era, fought and beat a lot of taller guys who had the reach on him and did just fine and had that accurate sledgehammer of a right hand that made him a legend

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by Blues 34

Yes Raglan did TKO Kocur but I think that was more of a case of every dog has their day for Raglan who did have some pop if he caught you flush just look at his KO of Joe Reekie.

I hate these hypothetical matchups because they are just that hypothetical.

Would McGrattan have a chance vs Kocur sure he would have a chance vs anyone he is a big tough kid.

Kocur played in a much tougher era, fought and beat a lot of taller guys who had the reach on him and did just fine and had that accurate sledgehammer of a right hand that made him a legend

You know I have heard this tougher era bit...Really beg to differ here, I mean if you haven't already roll up and take a look at MCG's opponents...I think that the era thing is a red herring. Heck! My era was the 70s, and 80s - no less the ware....Kocur was the toughest of the tough but not unbeatable - Am sure that if Kocur's name was sloted into the mix of McGratten's fight card it would not jump out at you as it would seem almost common place in the context of all the other behemoths, nut jobs, techical fighters, brawlers, boxers, strong men, etc....

[ROZZY]

Reading some of the posts. Been watching hockeyfights for long time. I see a few saying Kocur Ko'd lotsguys. I seen a few of his of Playfair and Kyte. Who else he Ko'd cause sounds like he ko'd over 10 or 15 people in his career and I just dont see that as true.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by ROZZY

Reading some of the posts. Been watching hockeyfights for long time. I see a few saying Kocur Ko'd lotsguys. I seen a few of his of Playfair and Kyte. Who else he Ko'd cause sounds like he ko'd over 10 or 15 people in his career and I just dont see that as true.

Jackson? Don't know which one.

Could not agree more with you. The KO issue is blown way out of proportion relative to his 286 fights, way out!

[BENNETTWOLF]

I guess a few points spring to mind. I've never personally liked JK much but have objectively been impressed anyway. The thing that stands out to me isn't his vaunted KO power but his squat, solid strength in controlling opponents. Very few, (if nearly any) guys won that battle vs joey and combined with the fear of his right, it led to a lot of less than thrilling wins but wins nontheless

Kocur was the kind of guy i always wanted to discredit but he's a top 20 fighter in anyone's sane list (top 10 in mine).

I've been exceptionally impressed with McGrattan. I admit that i have a bit of a hard time keeping the results among the "recent crop" straight, as in, "did brian handle godard real well or vice versa" etc. This said, i've always thought he was probably the best of the newer bunch. Possibly it is boogaard but, like i say, i'd have to watch both guys careers in depth to give my opinion.

I do think mcgrattan deserves all time consideration. One of the new age "jersey jab and trade rights" guys, his style can lead to the occasional loss. I do recall he went about equal against similar Andrew Peters before peters drew so much criticism....................by way of example. The style has some holes in his case, occasionally leaving his chin exposed but he was never a member of the safety first school.

Big, rangy and very willing guy who could give anyone problems. Kocur probably would catch him with memorable shots in a bout or two. He might also win fights near the boards by bulling mcgrattan around (as he did vs many) but i could see him outpointing jolting JK in any wide open T2T fights. Kocur nuetralized reach and height disadvantages well but it dosen't make it an automatic thing.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by BENNETTWOLF

I guess a few points spring to mind. I've never personally liked JK much but have objectively been impressed anyway. The thing that stands out to me isn't his vaunted KO power but his squat, solid strength in controlling opponents. Very few, (if nearly any) guys won that battle vs joey and combined with the fear of his right, it led to a lot of less than thrilling wins but wins nontheless

Kocur was the kind of guy i always wanted to discredit but he's a top 20 fighter in anyone's sane list (top 10 in mine).

I've been exceptionally impressed with McGrattan. I admit that i have a bit of a hard time keeping the results among the "recent crop" straight, as in, "did brian handle godard real well or vice versa" etc. This said, i've always thought he was probably the best of the newer bunch. Possibly it is boogaard but, like i say, i'd have to watch both guys careers in depth to give my opinion.

I do think mcgrattan deserves all time consideration. One of the new age "jersey jab and trade rights" guys, his style can lead to the occasional loss. I do recall he went about equal against similar Andrew Peters before peters drew so much criticism....................by way of example. The style has some holes in his case, occasionally leaving his chin exposed but he was never a member of the safety first school.

Big, rangy and very willing guy who could give anyone problems. Kocur probably would catch him with memorable shots in a bout or two. He might also win fights near the boards by bulling mcgrattan around (as he did vs many) but i could see him outpointing jolting JK in any wide open T2T fights. Kocur nuetralized reach and height disadvantages well but it dosen't make it an automatic thing.

Great post - Look! Kocur's place is cemented in place. I agree and am in sympatico with your description - You can try and knit-pik but at the end of the day Kocur was a load....Having said that, I do not think that a guy like McGratten has much to fear, can I say that these guys are kinda book-ends of each other - I think mid-ice as you say MCG has the edge with his rangy slicing and dicing - he also has the advantage of positioning his head slight angled back where he gains a lil time and room to JK's thunderous counters -

[Morning Wood]

Originally Posted by srehm1

Or grimson, or probert or kyte or Brash or tinordi-all of them were "bigger" and had longer reach and yet none of them could effectively hold Kocur at bay.

Kocur seemed to love to punch "up" at a taller opponent. I think he beats McGrattan in a long bout (I am a huge McGrattan fan) and against Wilson it would be Kocur's KO power versus Wilson's ability to land the upper cut... Again, due to Kocur's ability to neutralize larger opponents I think Kocur wins both bouts.

[BaddaBing Badda Boom]

Originally Posted by Morning Wood

Kocur seemed to love to punch "up" at a taller opponent. I think he beats McGrattan in a long bout (I am a huge McGrattan fan) and against Wilson it would be Kocur's KO power versus Wilson's ability to land the upper cut... Again, due to Kocur's ability to neutralize larger opponents I think Kocur wins both bouts.

MW - thx for your input on Wilson - what I was after was McGratten vs Wilson not so much Kocur vs Wilson - Lord knows I tried to get that going a few x

[Morning Wood]

Originally Posted by TheBoogeyman

I hate referring to other fights because I understand it dosnt mean everything, but look at how Kocur handled psychopath Link Gaetz. Kocur and McGrattan would make for an awesome fight, but Id give Kocur the go ahead in a 5 fight series.

Couldn't agree more... Too many folks here use the if fighter "A" beats fighter "B", and fighter "B" beats fighter "C", then (in a hyperthetical) fighter "A" beats fighter "C" because of results against commin Foe... However, entertaining due to the fact that we don't have much else to discuss... Show me a fighter who is undefeated throughout his career or who does not have that one fight, against a lesser opponent, that they should have, but didn't, win.

[Morning Wood]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

MW - thx for your input on Wilson - what I was after was McGratten vs Wilson not so much Kocur vs Wilson - Lord knows I tried to get that going a few x

McGrattan wins... Wilson would hold on, kinda like he did against Probie... McGrattan rarely ducks the head and that neutralizes Wilson's most effective punch, the uppercut...

[acdcrocksno1]

Certainly an unteresting match up a lot closer than people are saying, I can't see Kocur losing a 10 fight series though.

McGrattan vs Cote Jan 20, 2008 - YouTube

If Cote could do this to him I'm sure Kocur could acheive a similair effect. Also on punching power see how many flush shots McGrattan landed on Stevie Mac? Ever seen Kocur land that many and have the guy still swinging back?

[Shoryuken]

Originally Posted by acdcrocksno1

Certainly an unteresting match up a lot closer than people are saying, I can't see Kocur losing a 10 fight series though.

McGrattan vs Cote Jan 20, 2008 - YouTube

If Cote could do this to him I'm sure Kocur could acheive a similair effect. Also on punching power see how many flush shots McGrattan landed on Stevie Mac? Ever seen Kocur land that many and have the guy still swinging back?

I agree that Kocur would likley take this one, however I can think of one glaring instance where Kocur hit a guy flush, repeatedly, and he was still swinging back:

Gaetz vs Kocur Jan 9, 1990 - YouTube

In fairness though, I don't think scientists have yet decided if Link Gaetz is all human, or part-man, part-beast.

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by Stevens Lindros

Probie could have definetly in hsi prime when they were both Wings, he just lost his abilities over time faster than Kocur did [except in actually playing hockey].

ok so McGrattan is like a prime probert now??

If Kocur had instances in his career where he had trouble with bigger fighters then I'd be inclined to believe the idea that Mcgrattan's reach would give him issues. However I never saw that. In fact it wasn't big guys who gave him issues-if anything it was speed merchants or good switchers who could give him trouble. even some lefties. I think a guy like godard would give him a lot of trouble with his ability to switch hands so well for a big guy.

I'm not saying Kocur wins this series- i think it's very close. I just don't like that "he was bigger so he would beat him" way of breaking down these fighters. styles make fights. not "size".

[srehm1]

Originally Posted by BaddaBing Badda Boom

You know I have heard this tougher era bit...Really beg to differ here, I mean if you haven't already roll up and take a look at MCG's opponents...I think that the era thing is a red herring. Heck! My era was the 70s, and 80s - no less the ware....Kocur was the toughest of the tough but not unbeatable - Am sure that if Kocur's name was sloted into the mix of McGratten's fight card it would not jump out at you as it would seem almost common place in the context of all the other behemoths, nut jobs, techical fighters, brawlers, boxers, strong men, etc....

I would also make the claim that JK was fighting in a tougher era. Better fighters, more styles to deal with. everyone wasn't just... "big". You had speed merchants like berube and clark kordic, power guys like Kocur laus ray, great little guys like domi, mcphee, stamina guys like mcsorley langer, technical wizards like miller langer hunter, great switchers like may mckenzie clark etc so much more competitive too. it wasn't all staged or going through the motions and routine. these guys fought mad and fought to win. i look at a top-10 or top-20 all time list and you will see the majority of fighters from probert's time.

I do think that the best of any era could hang with any era, but saying that the post lockout era of fighting was better than the probert era is a stretch.