QMJHL Basically Eliminating Fighting

[itsJ.Millertime]

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli

No I did read his post, and I'm aware of the automatic game misconduct if you instigate a fight. So basically my guess is we'll see the refs not handling out instigator penalties for "star" players who fight (unless he jumps his opponent), and enforcers or known "problem" players will get the instigator.
The officials definitely have more power to completely control the game and they now have a good control of every game and fighter to not let get out of control any game. So my guess is this rules will especially avoid any kind of brawls and games with more then 1-2 fights.

I misunderstood the meaning of staged fights maybe, for me a staged fight is a fight without a reason, just a fight that happens because two enforcers or fighters agree to test each other out because they are not going to see more ice-time anyway. If there is a reason behind and both guys agree to go I have no problem with it. My guess is most enforcers/fighters now will agree to go before they drop the gloves and as long as the refs are not complete idiots they'll avoid to handle out instigating penalties.
I think you are wrong with the 50% drop of fighting overnights just because the NHL implemented the new rules. We had less fights the first season after the lockout but we had more fight again last season. We have less fights in general compared to the early 90's mid 90's but not really much less then before the last lockout.

Thats basicaly what I was getting at, refs will control the way the games played and any player with any type of toughguy reputation will be looked at very closely when engaging in a fight and could be given a gamer at any moment. That has to play into the coaches and players minds, I dont see how it cannot. I guess it will all depend on just how much the Q wants to cut back on fighting as to how the "instigators" are called.

When I was talking about the drop in fights I was mainly talking about the drop in fights pre bettyman to his first season as commisioner and when he really put teeth into the instigator call. Before he took office fight totals were generaly ranging from 1,000-1,300 fights a season. His first year the total was barely over 700 fights hence my nearly 50% drop statement. But in fact upon looking at the stats the fight total for the 03 season (the last before the lockout and new rules) was in fact nearly 900 fights and the first season after the lockout was only 510 so that was in fact nearly a 50% drop. The next season was about the same but last year the total nearly reached 700 so yes it did get a bit better last year but still far from the totals pre intstigator penalty.

My whole point here, and the numbers do show it to be true, is that if there was such a big drop in fights with players getting a extra 2 and maybe a 10 min misc. there would be a equaly big drop now that they get a extra 2 and a possible gamer.
I hope your right though and theres not because the way the games played today is boring enough, you take out what little fighting there is and you can forget this sport ever making it back to mainstream.

[Ciccarelli]

Originally Posted by itsJ.Millertime

Thats basicaly what I was getting at, refs will control the way the games played and any player with any type of toughguy reputation will be looked at very closely when engaging in a fight and could be given a gamer at any moment. That has to play into the coaches and players minds, I dont see how it cannot. I guess it will all depend on just how much the Q wants to cut back on fighting as to how the \"instigators\" are called.

When I was talking about the drop in fights I was mainly talking about the drop in fights pre bettyman to his first season as commisioner and when he really put teeth into the instigator call. Before he took office fight totals were generaly ranging from 1,000-1,300 fights a season. His first year the total was barely over 700 fights hence my nearly 50% drop statement. But in fact upon looking at the stats the fight total for the 03 season (the last before the lockout and new rules) was in fact nearly 900 fights and the first season after the lockout was only 510 so that was in fact nearly a 50% drop. The next season was about the same but last year the total nearly reached 700 so yes it did get a bit better last year but still far from the totals pre intstigator penalty.

My whole point here, and the numbers do show it to be true, is that if there was such a big drop in fights with players getting a extra 2 and maybe a 10 min misc. there would be a equaly big drop now that they get a extra 2 and a possible gamer.
I hope your right though and theres not because the way the games played today is boring enough, you take out what little fighting there is and you can forget this sport ever making it back to mainstream.

You are right on it considering the drop of fights as soon as the instigator penalty was implemented. If you add the increasing number of europeans coming to the NHL during the 90's the drop in fights and physical play was probably as high as you said.
We had more fights last year again and many teams are again believing they need an enforcer so with all the enforcers signing with new teams and with the increase of fights last season I'm still hoping it will maybe increase again a little bit and then remain the same in the future.
For now the game misconduct for instigating a fight is implemented only in the QMJHL, but probably also the other junior leagues will do it in the near future. I can live with that because I don't have a chance to see junior hockey anyway and I'm still not convinced if it is a good thing to see 16 year old boys fighting and brawling, but that's a different discussion.
The influence of this new junior-rules on pro hockey won't be too drastic IMO. There are enough players around that turn out to be fighters on pro-hockey-levels and weren't scouted as enforcers coming out of junior. So also if we see less fighters in junior the number of tough guys playing in the Pro-leagues won't change much. Besides that with maybe less fights in junior-hockey there won't be anymore 16-17 year old boys scouted and draftet later as fighters but as hockeyplayers that could turn out to be fighters later in their career while they had a chance to develop more their skills in junior hockey.
Besides that I think you are a dreamer if you believe hockey will ever turn back the way it used to be in the mid or late 80's. I know it's hard to accept but I highly doubt there will ever be rule changes again to bring more physical or more fighting back. The golden days of rough hockey are over.

[itsJ.Millertime]

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli

You are right on it considering the drop of fights as soon as the instigator penalty was implemented. If you add the increasing number of europeans coming to the NHL during the 90's the drop in fights and physical play was probably as high as you said.
We had more fights last year again and many teams are again believing they need an enforcer so with all the enforcers signing with new teams and with the increase of fights last season I'm still hoping it will maybe increase again a little bit and then remain the same in the future.
For now the game misconduct for instigating a fight is implemented only in the QMJHL, but probably also the other junior leagues will do it in the near future. I can live with that because I don't have a chance to see junior hockey anyway and I'm still not convinced if it is a good thing to see 16 year old boys fighting and brawling, but that's a different discussion.
The influence of this new junior-rules on pro hockey won't be too drastic IMO. There are enough players around that turn out to be fighters on pro-hockey-levels and weren't scouted as enforcers coming out of junior. So also if we see less fighters in junior the number of tough guys playing in the Pro-leagues won't change much. Besides that with maybe less fights in junior-hockey there won't be anymore 16-17 year old boys scouted and draftet later as fighters but as hockeyplayers that could turn out to be fighters later in their career while they had a chance to develop more their skills in junior hockey.
Besides that I think you are a dreamer if you believe hockey will ever turn back the way it used to be in the mid or late 80's. I know it's hard to accept but I highly doubt there will ever be rule changes again to bring more physical or more fighting back. The golden days of rough hockey are over.

all good points you bring up but most of the heavyweight enforcers that do the bulk of the brawling in juniors are 18 yrs old or above and for the most part keep the 16-17 year olds from having to fight. Sure there are some 16 yr. olds that do fight but my guess is thats because they enjoy it (yes some people do actualy enjoy fighting and think its fun) more than that they have to do it.

Yes the influx of euros has had a huge impact on the softness of todays hockey but the rules are far more damaging and in my oppinion the cause of such a huge influx. In the past many euros and even soft NAs washed out long before they made it the ahl or nhl and many others did not even try to come over knowing full well they could not survive in north american hockey because of its intensity and physicality. Now with all the new rules implemented over the years by bettyman and his cronies euros and soft NAs feel right at home with the patheticly soft and low intensity way the games now played here.

Maybe rule changes like this wont have the impact that I feel it will in the pro level and maybe you will be right that now enforcers in juniors will have more time to work on their skills instead of straight on fighting but maybe it wont. Either way this is just another piece of the tough hockey we all love being taken away.

Yeah, maybe I am a dreamer and should just give up my hope that real hockey will ever return and join the millions of other fans that have left this now boring sport behind for better things. I am actualy doing that now, I did not renew my partial season tickets for the wolfpack last year and attended only a half dozen games (my lowest ever) and did not do so again this year and with the team shaping up like it is I doubt I will go to a single game. I only attended one Springfield game but I did order a few on B2. I do not go on my weekend "road trips" to other cities to view live games anymore and hardly ever watch "new" nhl games on tv and even when I do watch I normally change channels before the end of the first period due to boredom and frustration.
It's hard to admit that the sport you grew up loving is no longer what you love and its very hard to just leave it behind but every year it just gets a little easier and little easier. With more rule changes like this though it wont be long now till its very easy.

[CatatonicMoose]

These rules haven't really had an impact on the first couple of pre-season games one way or the other.

Although 2 games is hardly a good sample size but at least a positive start as the kids are still fighting and teams are still going with certain guys who are there to fight.

[fansince65]

This is just a point of intrest that i came across in a book that I am reading :

A headline from a Kingston Ontario newspaper the "Daily British Whig" on January 17,1918 ..

"Warned against Fighting" , President Calder Tries to "Eliminate Pugilism" From Hockey :

Thats Frank Calder Who the Calder Trophy is called after , The were even trying Ninety years ago to eliminate fighting , but it's still part of the game !!!!

[nativescrapper]

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/s...rtsHockey/home

[CatatonicMoose]

Very little has changed from last year.